Rye Sourdough with Multigrain Soaker - Spread in the Oven
I started with https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32972/rye-sourdough-spelt-and-soaker from Mebake. I didn't have spelt or semolina so I made some substitutions (which I knew would change the result: buckwheat groats for the semolina in the soaker and whole wheat flour for spelt in the final dough). I used pumpernickel (coarse whole rye) instead of regular whole rye. I also added 15% chopped onion and scallions.
The volume increases during bulk fermentation and proofing were better than I expected and more than the formula cites. When I dropped the loaves out of the bannetons, they held up fine. But sometime during the bake, they spread out.
Rye Sourdough with Multigrain Soaker Photos
The crumb is tight but not solid, and looks OK. I don't see any signs of over-proofing but maybe someone else will see something.
Any thoughts on why the loaves collapsed while baking?
Thanks
I wouldn't really say "collapsed", just spread. It's hard to know how your substitutions balance out. Wheat for spelt should have reduced the tendency to spread, buckwheat groats for seminola would have reduced the gluten and tended to lead to spreading.
The rye content is high but not unduly high. Did the dough feel more like a paste or more like a wheat dough? Generally speaking I would be looking at:
- Reducing the hydration;
- Developing the gluten more, if the dough can be handled and stretched;
- Shortening the fermentation and proofing periods, in case the rye is succumbing to starch attack. The rapid development you had supports this suggestion.
If there is enough free water in the recipe to hydrate the flour, I would also suggest mixing just the wheat flour, water, and starter together to develop their gluten, and then later adding all the soakers and other ingredients. Sometimes that's enough to give more body to a loaf.
The loaves may have flattened more than you wanted, but how did they taste? I'm betting it was pretty good.
TomP
Thanks for your insightful comments. The dough was sticky, like most high hydration doughs, but felt like a dough with structure and was not a loaf pan batter.
It sounds like you are almost there. It also sounds delicious, spread out or not.
I had one more thought, more like a tweak. You said that the loaf seemed all right coming out of the banneton, but later during baking had slumped. At least in my oven, most of the expansion takes place during the first 5 minutes. But the interior is almost a thick liquid for longer than that. That would be the starch in a gelled condition.
The gelled starch doesn't flow outwards because the outer part of the loaf has stiffened enough to prevent it. So maybe a higher initial temperature would cook the crust faster, and therefore resist the slumping better. The large amount of water would tend to keep the outer layer cool, which a higher temperature would also help counteract.
I'd try a temperature 50 deg F higher than before, or maybe even more if your oven can do it. If the top seems to be getting too cooked too soon, lower the temperature and perhaps cover the top with aluminum foil for a time to protect it. Actually, lowering the temperature to around 375 deg F will prevent scorching the top and still be able to bake out the water. You would have to length the bake time, of course.
This combined with a slightly lower hydration and the gluten head start we talked about might be enough to do the trick.
What about oven temp, steam, length of bake?
Mostly per the formula:
Well, that quashes any ideas I might have had about the baking.
I wouldn't be critical, Louis. In fact, I think you're right on track.
I baked Khalid's great formula 2 years back and, like you, got oven spread as opposed to spring. As I recall, the dough expanded mightily before baking, but as I shaped it, I noticed it was super-slinky from the cornmeal and semolina (and perhaps a bit too much water) and it widened rather than rose in the oven. I suspect I needed to work way more on gluten development and shaping, perhaps even doing some stitching. I wonder, also, if I had a tight 'baguette form' to bake them in, an oven that could actually hold steam, and, perhaps, as TomP suggests, started at a higher initial temperature, if these could have achieved more upward burst.
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They were delicious, though, as I'm sure yours are.
Rob
Those photos look great. I occasionally get a nice grigne like yours, but rarely if ever see a crumb that open for the 100% whole wheat or any of the rye breads.
thanks, Louis. Of course, mebake's formula is not 100% whole grain.
One thing I also realized rereading the original post was that mebake offered his own solution to the spread problem: "the bread might have benefited from extra lightness by increasing bread/all purpose flour."
Rob