Stretches and folds vs KitchenAid
Hi there!
I routinely make a loaf pan sandwich sourdough for our family. I always have about a 30-60 minute autolyse, add starter and hand-mixed the dough, add salt 15-30 minutes later, and then do a few stretches and folds over the course of the next few hours.
The other day I was doing two batches of two loaves each and decided to try running one batch in the KitchenAid (after autolyse/initial mix/salt addition). I wanted to see how much difference the KitchenAid made for gluten formation.
Well, I was doing other things and probably left the KitchenAid running too long, and the dough turned pretty soupy. (It is 80% hydrated, so already very wet, but it got much more slack and soupy.) But I proceeded anyway. I treated both batches of bread pretty similarly from this point until baking, with just a little added proofing time for the KitchenAid loaves.
The picture shows the KitchenAid bread on the left and the stretched /folded bread on the right.
The KitchenAid bread actually has such beautiful even crumb, but it is very short! The crumb is lovely for my kids' lunchbox sandwiches, though.
I'm wondering, if I did a shorter mix in the KitchenAid, and/or left it to either bulk ferment or proof longer, do you think it would still have that crumb? I'm mystified by how soupy it got and did not expect it to look so great inside and wouldn't mind replicating that!
Duplicate post.
With a panned sandwich bread for kids' lunches, I'm wondering why you use such a high hydration dough. Lower hydration would produce a tighter, more even crumb and could be done in the KA.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23061/extremely-sourdough-soft-sandwich-bread-most-shreddble-soft-velvety-ever
Doesn’t make very good sandwiches, IMO. Bread with open pores hold more jelly/peanut butter/mayo/mustard .... whatever your condiment of choice happens to be. High hydration (generally) makes a better sandwich bread. I say this as I finish a sandwich made with a 100% hydration rye bread and muenster cheese sandwich ;0)
Holey bread might taste great, but it's not good at containing egg salad. :)
We make a high hydration bread because we love the moistness and taste. Normally it's fine. Sometimes I skip the PB&J in favour of meat or something if I get a particularly holey slice or two, but we make it work because we love it.
That being the case, I was seeking information on why the KitchenAid experiment turned the dough soupy and yet produced as lovely a crumb as the other, but without the occasional larger holes. I just loved the evenness of the crumb combined with the usual texture.
So I'm curious for opinions, if I did something similar again but let it rise a bit longer, would the crumb stay as even?
...then stretch, fold, rest, shape, retard and bake per usual. This is straight WBF sourdough:
Small-ish holes, a compromise.
I'd take the one on the left. I'm not a fan of holey bread, in any circumstance.
The question is, what happened? If the dough was overmixed the gluten break down. This causes the dough to not trap the gasses inside sufficiently, hence a flatter loaf. It could also be that the dough strength was less than the folder one. But my guess is overmixing. I would also say the right loaf was not properly degassed causing large uneven holes.
also changing the pH value in the dough, for instance, with milk creates a much tighter/ even crumb
I make banana bread all the time. Like muffins, it never develops gluten and goes into the bread pan as a sticky goo. It doesn't rely on yeast, baking soda/powder for leavening- yet still have plenty of holes and structure. You didn't say how long was too long, so it's hard to say if you weren't watching the dough if it is overdeveloped, or underdeveloped. If you didn't see it go through the phase where it cleanly pulls away from the sides of the mixing bowl, it's anyone's guess where you were at in the kneading process. You didn't mention the dough temperature either, another factor...
As for the giant hole on your hand-kneaded loaf, that looks like a shaping issue, not a fermentation/gluten issue.