September 30, 2016 - 5:13pm
Going to San Francisco for the First Time!
Hello all! I have about one day (maybe two) to spend in Frisco, not long enough :(
I'm going next weekend, and would greatly appreciate recommendations for acquiring some true, old fashioned sour dough breads. I'm an intense purist, really looking for the bakeries that make true sourdough with plenty of balance (not just overly sour bread).
But, I also enjoy suprises, so any other baked goods you can suggest would be much appreciated. I will hopefully be filming a video of my adventures, which I'll post here when we come back.
So far, Tartine seems very interesting, though some folks say it's quite overpriced.
Sushi recommendations also appreciated. ^_^
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Acme (can buy it at the Ferry Building), Boudin (several places, but might as well hit pier 39 and go to the one over at Fisherman's Wharf), and Tartine.
I bought a croissant at Tartine's and it was wonderful. Think I bought a morning bun, too, but I'm not sure. Couple of years ago. Remember that they don't have baguettes until late afternoon, so plan accordingly.
Overpriced? I don't remember, but who cares? It's vacation.
(Wasn't very impressed with Acme.)
I'm curious, what else did you do in SF? We're also on the hunt for sushi and anything Asian (maybe some duck? Buns? Idk)
I was only there for a weekend to take a baguette course at the San Francisco Baking Institute, so I didn't have a lot of time. I wanted to visit Tartine and a few other baking places.
Josey Baker's "The Mill" is for sure one location that you need to visit. Most of the breads you can get there are made according to the recipes from his book.
I was there 10 days ago and also got his starter, the bread was excellent, especially "Dark Mountain Rye". People there are very nice and I spoke with Josey as well.
I was also at Tartine bakery, but it always crowded. On Sunday I was queuing there for 45 minutes before I could place the order and also reserved one country loaf for three days later which I took home. The bread comes out of oven at 4:30PM only. Their pastries are fabulous.
Have nice time in SF, Joze
Have you tried Thorough? I've heard great things about it.
I LOVE San Fran and you will get a very small taste with only a day or two but enjoy!
First of all-how are you getting around? They have MUNI passes that give you unlimited rides on all buses, MUNI trains (as opposed to BART trains-separate company) and cable cars. Buy a pass at the airport-find the MUNI kiosk or visitor kiosk. Make sure you get a map!
https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/transit/fares-passes/visitor-day-passes
You can get from the airport to anywhere in the city on public transportation. Take the BART from the airport to anywhere in the city and even surrounding cities.
https://www.bart.gov/
Anything Asian? Japantown? http://sfjapantown.org/
Chinatown? http://www.sanfranciscochinatown.com/
Seafood? Swan Oyster Depot http://www.sfswanoysterdepot.com/ I thought this place was VERY overrated nd expensive-even for SF. If you don't get there in the AM before a line forms- plan on waiting 2 hours, at least. They do serve Boudin bread but mine was very disappointing.I think there are other alternatives.
Polk street (by Swan) is a happening street-bars and restarurants. Panchos Salsa Bar and Grill, 1200 Polk St, is a little hole-in-the-wall with some really good , handmade,frsh Mexican food. 1st time we went, Momma Maria was sitting at a card table making the corn tortillas fresh to order.
Irish Coffee The Buena Vista Café http://www.thebuenavista.com/home/irishcoffee.html
Ghiradelli Square-a bit disappointing- is a big store, restaurant and ice cream parlor-not a factory. You can buy more varieties of their signature choclate squares but it will be MUCH cheaper if you buy a popular variety back home on sale. Nice setting, tho, on the bay. http://www.ghirardellisq.com/
The Cable Car Museum- http://www.cablecarmuseum.org/ If you have the time, it is very small and free but very fascinating.
Cable Cars- usually crowded. In San Fran you learn to walk down and ride up. The hills are killlers.
Thorough Bakery 248 Church St, San Francisco, CA 94114-1311
Another hole-in-the-wall. Best pastry,coffee,relaxing moment ever. They have a covered "patio" out back with a few tables that was a refuge one noisy day for me. Fantastic coffee and wonderful pastry. Kind of in the middle of nowhere neighborhood by bus. ACME bread and the Wharf- all very expensive. You will be in sticker shock, unless you are from California, New York or Hong Kong. Even a simple 1 egg and toast breakfast will be way into the double digits. Tartine- never made it there. I wasn't thrilled by the rumor of crowding. I found other, delightful experiences! Have fun! So, enjoy! Travelling around takes time so make sure you narrow down your "must have" experiences to just a few and get those in, first. Lovely city.We are driving up from LA, and so we'll need to find somewhere to park our car as we use transit. Hopefully we can stay somewhere within SF.
Speaking of "Asian", I'm hoping to spend alot of time in Chinatown. But I'm sure we'll also go to Japantown for sushi.
I'm trying to come up with the must have spots that fit our desires, and then balance those out with much much cheaper options. Our idea of a good time is casually strolling and talking and eating all day long. We don't really like the sun that much though, definetly don't like that non stop California sunshine (we live near Portland Or, so...).
Also, we love rustic and traditional types of food. It's hard to find authenticity I'm these United States, so that's our slant.
Chinatown is not where the good Chinese food is, and Japantown is not where the good sushi is.
Chinese:
Ton Kiang on Geary. Big place, amazing dim sum, which you can order at dinner, too.
Ton Kiang on Irving. Unique place. Has been relentlessly, consistently great for at least the last 20 years.
Dim sum if money is no object: Yank Sing in Rincon Center, financial district. Superb.
Sushi:
The best in the area is actually in Sausalito, which is the next city north of the Golden Gate Bridge. Sushi Ran. It's quite expensive, but the have an interesting prix fixe. Another great place is Ebizu, off Irving. It's large and crowded, but very high quality.
Let me know if you need other recommendations.
Phil
We went there last summer for a few days, I could not find a reasonable priced hotel in the city so we ended up staying at a Best Western in Oakland. The hotel was right on the water and we had a view of the San Francisco skyline, they offered a free shuttle to the ferry terminal and the Bart station. We preferred taking the ferry and it took only 15 minutes or so to get into the city. At the Bart terminal they was super friendly staff that walked us through the process of getting the pass card and how to load it, made taking transit in the city a breeze. We went to both Tartine and the Mill and I think both where good destinations for lunch, before catching the ferry back to the hotel we bought some bread from ACME and some cold meats from the market at the Ferry Building. We went to two foodie cities that summer the other being Portland OR and I would have a tough time deciding which I prefer.
China town is pretty good and we did have a really nice lunch there but the restaurant's name did not stick. If Cherie said lets go back I would not argue.
Hope you have a great time
I you go back to Portland, go to ANNIES DOUGHNUTS in the morning and get their maple bars, or really anything else. Not as much hype as voodoo, but they are really well made, humble doughnuts. So tender.
How many Best Westerns are in Oakland? Your spot sounds perfect.
Bread is one thing, but it's not the only thing.
Tartine - best pastry I've ever had. Get the morning bun. The bread is not available until 4 p.m. There's always a line, it's worth the wait.
The Mill/Josey Baker. Perhaps the most impressive looking (and tasting) bread around. You can watch them shaping loaves. Across the street is a very good BBQ place, 4505 Burgers & BBQ (for SF, since it's not our specialty).
Ariscault - Just won best new pastry shop in the U.S. in Bon Appetit. Get there before it opens. http://www.sfgate.com/food/eatup/article/Arsicault-Bakery-adjusts-to-life-as-nation-s-9179897.php
B. Patisserie is highly regarded. I still haven't been.
The above are musts. If you're still not satisfied, Acme is second rate in my opinion, but many people like it. Semifreddis in Berkeley is very good, but neither of those is cutting edge, and they are geared more to the mass market. Arizmendi in Oakland and Berkeley does interesting work, and the Cheese Board in Berkeley is legendary.
Have fun!
I've been down this path.
You might try Tadich Grill. They don't sell loaves of bread there but it's the closest you'll come to "true old-fashioned" sourdough. Acme comes close but is significantly milder in flavor than the old-school breads.
Most of the old-school bakeries, many of which started up during the gold-rush era, have folded for a variety of reasons. Except for Acme, most of what survives today is not even close to the old-school sourdough for which San Francisco is renowned, sorry to say, not even Tartine. That's not to say the current bakeries don't make good bread -- it's just not the same as the old-school sourdoughs and could just as well be from Milwaukee, Cleveland, Portland or any city in the U.S. as from San Francisco.
I am not a fan of Boudin. It has a strong vinegary flavor and is not even close to the old-school breads, in my opinion. They trade on San Francisco's sourdough reputation but it is a poor imitation sold to tourists who are unfamiliar with the real thing and don't know the difference, again in my opinion.
Nowadays everything about San Francisco is hideously, nightmarishly expensive. I was there in June and stayed on the peninsula, taking Caltrain to get to the city.
I heard that since the 50s, the sourdough in SF aquired an overly vinegary taste and now everyone thinks that it is true SF sourdough. Bakeries like Tartine have been trying to bring back the lactic acid influenced sourdough, which is what I'm referring to as "old school", and is what i believe was actually the original style. Thoughts?
The acid content of S.F. sourdough was studied in the late 1960s and again in the 1970s. The two principal acids found in S.F. sourdough were lactic and acetic acids.
The manufacturing process of S.F. sourdough has been well documented, and the addition of vinegar was not part of the process. That is not to say that certain bakeries didn't add vinegar to their sourdough. The five bakeries studied by the USDA in the late '60s were Larraburu, Parisian, Colombo, Toscana and Baroni. Note that Boudin was not included in the study.
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1978/Documents/chem55_461.pdf
declined to participate not wishing to give up any secrets they said. All the rest went out if business - 'nuf said. Boudin is the closest thing to old school SFSD from the 60's including the bold bak and sour taste, They do not put any vinegar in their dough at all - none - not ever, but they are the only one still doing the old school, old dough method from 1849 too. I prefer mine better, or David Snyder'sSFSD that mine is based on, but theirs is only $3.99 a loaf and not $9 like Tartine. Mine only costs a buck a loaf to make and it is sprouted too:-)
It is tough to get a bad loaf of SD bread in SF today but tastes have changed from 1965 too. Columbo was the best but David will say Parisian was better, others say Laraburru was king. I think it depended where you lived and what bakery was the closest! I didn't taste any till early 1973 but they were all still kicking . I always took my Mon Laraburru since it was available at the airport and she loved it!.
Josey Baker's is my favorite place for bread in SF today but I love whole grain SD breads rather than white ones too..... but I'm spending $4 for a slice of toast there either:-(
Enjoy filomatics dim sum and sushi recommendations! They are spot on. We have no good chinese, Japanese, sushi or dim sum places in Phoenix but if you haven't been to SF, or even LA which might be a lot better, then there are places you can say are pretty good here:-)
Have a great trip
Ok, so I will definetly be visiting Tadich Grill after my research. It seems that Boudin special bakes a very balanced loaf for them, and is the closest to the old french bakeries. Btw, do you believe that the l.sanfran bacteria concentration in starter is responsible, or do you think it's mainly technique?
Would you please chime in on any other spots that would suit a purist like myself? It doesn't have to be bread, just anything!
I remember posting some photos when we went to San Francisco and found them to repost.
Gerhard
Sandwich at the Tartine Bakery
Inside Tartine
Desert at Tartine
Toast at The Mill
Making bread at The Mill
Menu at The Mill
The flavor comes from the acids produced by l.sanfran.
Technique is important in any kind of bread baking, sourdough or otherwise.
I went to college in San Francisco but had never been inside the Ferry Building until recently. In my day, public transportation didn't really serve the Ferry Building. Now it does and you owe it to yourself to visit this must-see local landmark.. Acme Bread has a booth inside and you can try their sourdough for a little taste of old-school S.F. sourdough, only the old-school stuff was even more tart/sour/tangy than Acme. More than one streetcar line passes the Ferry Building now. Acme bakes several kinds of bread but be sure to get their sourdough for the genuine article.
The old Larraburu Bros. bakery was at 365 3rd Avenue but I doubt there is much to see there now. If you do go to the west side of town ("the avenues") another must-see-and-do is lunch or dinner at the Cliff House at Land's End. I don't know if they have old-school sourdough there, though.
Ever had bread at Thorough Pastries?
Has anyone tried Thorough Pastries?
I've been there several times. It's a favorite for brunch or lunch. FYI, it is a "lab" for the professional course students at SFBI to gain experience in a retail neighborhood bakery. It represents the ideal that Michel Suas, the founder of SFBI, promotes.
David
The classic flavor was due to a balance of lactic and acetic acids shifted towards the acetic acid side. To me, Parisian was the archetype. Other "old timers" would claim that for Larraburu. IMO, Boudin ain't it.
For your information, the acids are produced by lactobacilli that are not unique to the San Francisco Bay Area. The special classic flavor was the result of the fermentation procedure, not the beasties. Of course, no technique would generate that flavor in the absence of heterofermentive lactobacilli. The responsible lactobacilli have been found all over the world.
I do agree that the closest to the old-style SF sourdough is the bread at Tadich Grill. Actually, I think it's better than any of the old standbys.
David
Interesting, I had suspected such, but then I was thinking about Bulgarian yogurt and how different yogurts like Villi for example behave so differently. So you would say that, let's say, my personal oregon wheat/oregon grape starter has L.Sanfran in it?
Sure it is! Okay. Here's the rub.
1)There are many, many sub-species of L. sanfran.
2) Which sub-species dominate will depend on temperature, pH and hydration. (Some produce only lactic acid. Others produce both lactic and acetic acid, depending on their environment.) Also, availability of "food," i.e., free sugars and the "right" species of yeast, because a key to SD production is the symbiosis of yeast and lactobacilli. The species of yeast that will grow in a low pH environment cannot digest maltose, but L. sanfran requires maltose and cleaves maltose into two glucose molecules which the yeast can then use for fermentation. Ain't nature wonderful?
3) What metabolites are produced by L. Sanfran depends on the variables mentioned in 2).
So, there are many variables that influence the final flavor profile. Some of these you can "set," e.g., hydration. Some change as the dough ferments, e.g., pH. So time becomes another important variable influencing flavor.
Well, maybe TMI. The short answer is "yes." :-)
David
dmsnyder: Can you point us to any documentation of these subspecies and their acid profiles? The only subspecies I'm familiar with are LTH1729 and LTH2581.
I'll look at what I have. Debra Wink is the TFL resident baker and bacteriologist. You might ask her.
David
While perusing the literature on this subject, I came across a statement which said there are 80 strains of L.sanfran. The question is, what acids do they produce and in what proportions?
Without delving unnecessarily deep into the bacteriology, here's what I think is important for the baker to know:
There are many strains of L. sanfran. that may be found in sourdough cultures. Some strains are "homofermentative." These product only lactic acid. Other strains are "herterofermentative." They produce both lactic and acetic acid.
In general, lower hydration and cooler temperatures favor acetic acid production. Higher hydration and warmer temperatures favor lactic acid production.
These bacteria also produce other organic acids, esters and aldehydes in lesser quantities which contribute to the bread's aroma and flavor.
Many other variables influence acid production and flavor, particular substrate availability, e.g., amino acids are substrates for larger organic acids.
David
Based on the documentation of the processes, we know a couple of things about S.F. sourdough:
Hydration was 59%.
The sponge was proofed at 80° F.
The dough was proofed at 86° F. At Larraburu the dough was proofed at 105° F.
They also fed their starter once a day and kept it refrigerated until the next mix.
David
See U.S. Patent #3,734,743:
https://www.google.com/patents/US3734743
Refrigeration of the sponge isn't spelled out in the patent but it's probably a safe assumption to make. During refrigeration the reproduction rates of the microorganisms will slow way down.
See pg. 462, 2nd paragraph of the section on "Materials and Methods" of the article for which you provided the link.
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1978/Documents/chem55_461.pdf
David
No, the number of strains is pretty much infinite, you can reasonbly expect to be able to isolate a different strain from every starter you look at. Moreover, you can isolate multiple strains of the same bacteria from one sourdough. However, in practice you should not expect a substantial difference in behavior.
The thing is you can never really say with 100% certainty what do you have in your starter. It can be all Lb.Sf. or it can have none of it at all. May be some day there will be a simple test, but not at this time. Or may be some day there will be a survey of American starters, and we at least will have a general idea what species are predominant in different regions. The bottom line is, if you feel like thinking that your starter is pure Lb. Sf. - who's to stop you?
The Tadich they opened in D.C. flies in Boudin sourdough. Makes me wonder about the S.F. one.
I've heard Tadich SF gets a special bake from Boudin that is a copy of the old style. Can't get it at Boudin tho, have to order at Tadich.
If you go at Chrismas! http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/36319/sfbis-christmas-tree-constructed-bread
It is a small storefront in the middle of the block that is very easy to miss. The pastry I had was very good and the coffee was the best I have ever had. Much better than any of the well-known coffee shops. A fond memory.
Ah! You mentioned it! I'm learning about all these places for the first time, soooo much researchhhhhh.
Muni is a very good system. The day pass is expensive, so look into that. The wife and I were given senior rates when we used the buses, so we only spent about $4 per day on fares. The buses run frequently which makes them quite convenient for getting around town.
We were in SF a couple of weekends ago. At that point in time, I was baking sandwich loaves, not very successfully, from The Joy of Cooking. I had no clue about the fancy bakeries in SF, or anywhere else.
We got a hotel near Fisherman's Wharf. We walked to the Ferry Building via Coit Tower and had breakfast there. We liked Acme. We then took BART to 16th/Mission and there caught a bus. Our goal was Heath Ceramics for a factory tour. We walked a couple of blocks to get there and passed this bakery with a line out the door and around the corner. We looked around Heath and checked in for the tour and had time to kill, so we thought we'd check out this bakery, called Tartine.
We had coffee and an apple danish. The danish was great, really good. Then, me being an old industrial baker, we watched the bakers at work for a bit.
We had a great time, and I'm sure you will, too.
Hi dmsnyder -
The way I read Tables II and III in this study, the balance of acids in S.F. sourdough tilted more toward lactic than acetic acid:
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1978/Documents/chem55_461.pdf
For example, in Table III the ratio of lactic/acetic acid in the finished bread is 3.10. Do you get something different? One would think that if acetic acid dominated, the bread would have a distinct vinegary flavor.
Larraburu was served in our house until the bakery went out of business in 1976. It wasn't until Larraburu closed that we started sampling other brands; by that time it was no longer possible to do a side-by-side comparison to Larraburu. My recollection is that these brands were all very similar: Larraburu, Parisian, Colombo, Toscana.
The primary acid in sourdough will always be lactic. However David isn't wrong.
Prior to being baked most sourdoughs that aren't so notoriously tangy have a lactic to acetic ratio between 4:1 - 3:1. From the linked paper (thanks btw) we can see ratios in the 2.X range. In addition the levels of TTA are very, very high! This means there are high levels of acid present, both acetic and lactic and since acetic is the sharper of the two and lactic is more mild we can determine that this bread would indeed taste more acetic than most other breads.
Simply put there is more acetic acid to taste.
Sure there is! You simply bake a loaf and see. If it rises and tastes sour, you've likely hit the bullseye.
There are dozens upon dozens species of lactic acid bacteria perfectly capable of producing sufficient amounts of acid. You don't think that Lb. Sf. is the only game in town, do you?
It is the dominant species in San Francisco sourdough, which is the topic of this discussion.
Let me rephrase it in more precise fashion: "In a study of four SF area bakeries (none of which exist today) conducted 45 years ago, it was shown to be the dominant species". Anything beyond that is a conjecture. It could be that every single starter in the US is just like that. It could be that they lucked into the only four starters that were like that. We simply don't know for certain because no one has looked at it since.
Two studies were conducted several years apart. The first encompassed five bakeries; the second studied one.
Does this in some way affect the validity of those studies?
Unless there is data to corroborate or refute those studies, nothing much has been proven. Actually, the second of the two studies corroborates the first.
I am not talking about validity of those studies, I am saying that you can not arbitrarily extrapolate their results onto every other sourdough.
Nobody's trying to. As I said to you previously, in this discussion we're talking about five San Francisco sourdough brands that existed in the 1960's and 1970's: Larraburu, Parisian, Colombo, Toscana and Baroni. A few of those bakeries closed due to trouble at the corporate level having nothing to do with sales, market share, public taste, etc.
Actually, this thread is about someone that is travelling to San Fran (the city) for the first time and wants to know where to get good/original SF SD bread. The discussion has turned into a hijack about Lab.SF.
Please start another thread, folks. This is an interesting discussion worthy of another thread so the original poster can get answers to their question.
Hey, OP here. On my way to SF by car, but suddenly my AC stopped working! Any mechanics out there? Blower is fine, but why would the cool suddenly stop? Fuses look fine, not sure about the AC diode. Car is from grandparents who only drove it occassionally. 2000 Saturn ls1 with only 125000.
Hows that for off topic! XD
Could be a multitude of reasons from low freon to a seized compressor. Sometimes the hardest part is finding an honest mechanic away from home. Hope it is something cheap.
Gerhard
Not to laugh at your dilemma, Amy, but we told you San Francisco would be expensive :)
While your car is in the shop, have the mechanic check the starter. Maybe it's low on yeast or lactobacilli.
A little sourdough humor for you :) Hope you get it worked out OK without breaking the bank.