Loaf didn't rise in the middle during baking
Bread started to move up, looked like it had a nice oven spring, but after 40 mins the middle is sunken or never rose. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Did I score too deep? Poor shaping? I recently started using a second baking stone above the loaf with my steam tray on it. I'm wondering if that might be the culprit.
I've noticed that with two stones the temperature between the stones (according to my oven thermometer) only reaches 250°C if I set the oven to 275°C. It seemed to hold it's shape well before it went in.
I've been baking for years and this is a new problem for me. I'd appreciate any suggestions.
Recipe details:
100% Flour: 75% 1050 flour (it's German. Sort of like bread flour) 25% rye
80% water
2% salt
1% active malt
0.3% instant yeast
Mixed in a stand mixer until it passed the window pane test. Checked volume and did 2 sets of stretch and folds then 2 of coil folds. Let it rise until +50% volume. Pre-shaped, benched for 30 mins, shaped into a boule and placed in a banneton. Retarded overnight in the fridge (~5°C). Next day removed from the fridge, scored and placed into a preheated oven. Two stones in the oven, one top, one bottom. Oven preheated as detailed above (set to 275°C, only reaches 250°C). Added a cup of water to the steam tray and sprayed the walls of the oven. Plugged the vent with a tea towel.
Edit: after cutting the middle feels gummy and under baked. Sides seem to be ok.
Slicing the side open showed other problems...
Crust was very dry and tasted a bit burnt.
Reduce time - reduce water - increase yeast. See what happens. Enjoy!
Do you mean the rising time? Proofing time? Time in the oven?
All of them - except oven time - basically see what works for you with that particular starter and flour The norm is the starter - it most likely went too acidic. The usual really. Enjoy!
It's not a starter. The yeast is fine. I've baked with it before and it responded well. Plus, as I said, it rose well and looked good going into the oven.
I've had some loaves that came out like yours in the pics. My flat loaves came out flat usually because of lack of dough strength, particularly from over-bulk fermentation. Over-fermentation also causes lack of great oven spring, and with an oven you set that hot, I'd expect more spring than what is shown. But seeing your process, I can't really see what to change, all looks standard, except that the water might be on the high side, but you are using a higher extraction flour, it can be thirstier than the white flour I'm used to. Maybe you can try folding or shaping tighter, the long retard will make the dough relax a lot.
Another thing I can point out is that you might have scored too deeply as well, it shows in the pictures that the bread recedes on the scoring areas. I had made this mistake previously, and my loaves spread farther than I wanted because of this. For weaker or more overfermented loaves I think it's recommended to score more shallow cuts.
Thanks for the tips! I used the bulk fermenting table from The Sourdough Journey based on final dough temperature, but I can try reducing it a bit. I think I have been scoring too deeply recently. I saw a video which said 'score deeper then you think' but apparently I was scoring deeply enough.
I'm very suspicious of the top stone. I recently baked a 75% AP four loaf with the same process, salt & yeast, and just baked it on the back of a baking sheet and threw handfuls of water onto the oven walls. That came out wonderfully. I'm going to try again without the top stone and see how it goes.
I also always used to put my steam tray on the oven floor but recently changed it to the top of the oven, thinking that the steam could be cooling the bottom stone. I baked many nice looking loaves that way and have been wondering how much difference it the positioning makes.
I would have said it was way overfermented except that I don't see any sign of that in your description of the process. I'm sure the scoring did not cause the collapse.
That, and your success with 75% AP flour makes me suspect the type 1050 flour. Some flours, especially onesthat are produced in smaller quantities, can vary depending on the growing conditions. I have had a flour that absolutely could not handle too much water - it was very picky and I had to reduce the hydration a lot to get usable loaves. But the loaves were fine once the hydration was reduced enough.
Otherwise the age and storage conditions of the flour could possibly have affected it.
TomP
It confused me that the loaf came easily out of the basket, sat proud on the peal and held shape after scoring. I've over fermented/ over proofed a fair chunk of loaves recently but it didn't seem like the delicate, wobbly mess which comes out of the fridge I'm those cases. I'm currently fermenting a second attempt but without the malt and I'll try without the top stone.
The 1050 is pretty common here, so I don't think it is a case of small production. I'm in Germany and I get it from the Lidl discounter. It says that it's 13.4% protein as opposed to 10.3% in type 550, the stuff I'm referring to as AP. The equivalence to US flour types doesn't really hold, as I'm sure you're aware.
I admit that all this is partly an experiment to see how far I can push hydration. I actually made an accidental 100% hydration 50/50 1050/whole wheat because I wasn't paying attention. It was very delicate and flat but sort of ciabatta-like. Very tasty and was eaten quickly. This loaf seemed like a disaster.
I understand. I suggest you lower the hydration as low as you can to see if the flour will be able to hold up. Even down to 60%, if that's enough to hydrate all the flour. If that gives good results, increase the hydration in increments of perhaps 2% or 3%. I know that's a small amount, but the problem flour I mentioned was really that sensitive. When I got a little over its tolerance, it would just die.
Partly the high hydration thing was after a few failures in my sourdough at 75% which I'm convinced was due to it being too acidic. I wanted to prove to myself that I could still handle high hydration
When I had trouble with flour that I mentioned, I too suspected starter acidity. So I made a loaf using yeast instead. I also lowered the hydration quite a bit. The loaf came out pretty well with the weakness problems. So I made another using sourdough, a few percentage points lower hydration than the yeasted version. It came out all right, too. Finally, I used sourdough and sneaked the hydration up a few more point, and that worked too.
So, maybe acidity, but very possibly not.
Like, it just turned into soup the longer I worked it. Never seen anything like it. I've now been feeding it twice a day for the last ten days and I'll see how it's doing soon.
If you mean the starter keeps turning to soup, it might be another kind of attack on the flour - not acidity. I don't remember what it was called but it came up in another thread recently. Someone will remember. If I remember rightly, the way to deal with it is to keep refreshing the starter at high ratios, maybe 1:10:10. People have said that the starter can suddenly begin behaving itself again, possibly after ten days to two weeks, IIRC. Worst case, you have to throw it out and start again making a new starter.
I think I read the thread. And no I don't mean the starter.I mean the dough. I autolysed the flour and it felt great. Added the levain and the dough broke down under my hands. I've been feeding 1:5:5 and now 1:3:3 for 10 days. It looks pretty good. I'll probably try it at the weekend
That's what I was thinking of. I must have misunderstood you and thought you meant the starter turned to soup.
Having the dough break down under my hands is just what I experienced with that problem flour. It happened over a period of hours. The S&Fs stopped building strength and then the dough got more and more sticky and stretchy as time and S&Fs went on. I ended up throwing the whole mess away.
So, yes, I encourage you to try drastically reducing the hydration, and also to try for shorter fermentation times until you can find a combination that the flour can tolerate. At least, it worked for me.
Here was my progression:
First try - 65% hydration sourdough - this turned into a stretchy, sticky mess.
Second try - 58% yeasted - dough seemed like a 65% hydration AP dough. A normal loaf.
Third try - 62% yeasted - This dough got wetter and stickier with time and S&Fs but didn't quite get as bad as the first try. I poured it into a loaf pan. It had a surprisingly open crumb and an excellent flavor.
Fourth try - 57% sourdough - This dough felt like an 65% hydration AP dough. The dough deteriorated some over time but I was able to form it into a batarde. A tear developed in the top surface during proof, but it baked up all right. This loaf baked quickly and didn't brown as usual, but it was a decent loaf.
Look at the difference between 58% and 62% hydration. You see that I wasn't kidding about the flour being very sensitive to the hydration! Maybe yours is too.
What happened to my sourdough was similar. I was doing slap n stretch, and it turned into soup the longer I worked it. I managed to get some structure into it with s&f but it came out very flat. The 75% 550 was almost identical in composition and process, except I used instant yeast, and that came out fine, so I really think it was the starter.
Can I ask: when you say it sat proud and held its shape after scoring, does that mean the bread depressed during baking?
As someone who's baked his share of loaves that turned into biscuits, it looks to me like the dough lost strength. That might involve something as simple as not shaping it firmly enough or under kneading it or something else. How does your thin bread taste?
Also -- and this was news to me when I was told it -- I have been advised by people on this site with way more knowledge than me that the cross score, while super pleasing aesthetically, undermines dough strength, whereas something like three parallel lines does not. So the deep cross might have unfortunately weakened your dough and furthered its tendency to go splat in the heat.
Rob
Or if it just never rose. It seemed under baked when I cut into it after baking.
Normally the thin bread tastes just fine. It's more of an aesthetic problem. But this time the loaf went in the bin. It was inedible.
I'll pay more attention to my shaping next time. And I'll consider a different scoring pattern. I've used the cross score successfully before but it may be that this dough can't deal with it.
The new batch has risen very little in the fridge. Let the dough bulk to +50% volume then pre-shaped, benched and shaped. Had look this morning and it had only risen one 'rung' of my basket.
Yesterday:
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This morning:
Resize_20241017_093929_9387.jpg
Should I let it rise before baking? It had been in the fridge about 8 hours at that point. I'll see if it's risen any more after work but I don't expect it to have done.
Looks much better. Totally blaming the top stone. This was baked without it and no malt.
Resize_20241017_184024_4202.jpg
I think I may have fallen into this trap again and confused the higher protein of 1050 with a bread flour. As mentioned in the above comment, US bread flour is more like 0.5% ash, so I should probably just add gluten powder (vital wheat gluten) to 550 to better approximate US bread flour.
1050 flour has a lot more bran in it doesn't it? US bread flour is a white flour, not a high-extraction flour.
So yes, much more bran