Everything but the spring
I seem to have lost my groove on getting oven spring. I have used just about every method out there -- Maurizio Leo, Elaine Boddy, etc. (after a while, they are all about the same!) but can't seem to get a nice rounded shape I see so often in others.
Just to cover the compulsories:
1. Yes, strong starter (fed 2-3X and more than doubling)
2. 70-80% hydration
3. Very strong bread flour (Central Milling, Haydens, etc.), usually with 10% of something else (whole wheat, spelt, rye)
4. Typical counter methods: autolyse, stretches and folds, dough temp around 70dF, experimented with anywhere between 30-80% rise), pre-shape, shaping, cold retard....)
5. Cold start, hot oven/cold pan, pre-heated pan...)
I'm not dissatisfied iwth the texture of taste, but these flat loaves are not only unimpressive as gifts, they limit use as sandwich bread. I did not want to cut this open yet since I just baked it, but the crumb on these fails tends to be a little dense -- not over-proofed or under-proofed, just not the larger holes, if that helps pin this down.)
What have you found are the biggest factors in oven spring? What might I do differently).
Sign me Discouraged!
I know this is a worn-out topic, but I'm perp
lexed. Thanks for any help.
Use a hydration that enables you to knead the dough till full gluten formation. Then do a few gentle stretch and folds throughout the bulk ferment.
For now allow the dough to double at the bulk ferment stage.
I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond. I want to make sure I understand what is behind your suggestions, because they do not appear to represent a change from what I'm doing.
When you say"use a hydration that allows me to knead to full gluten development," few sourdough methods call for much kneading at all. I don't know what you had in mind as a change in hydration, but I usually use anywhere between 70-80%, which is pretty de regueur. In my case, I have very good windowpane anyway using autolyse and stretch-and-fold before I shape.
The loaf I just posted is 80% rise, which is already pretty beyond what most suggest is ideal, and seems to be teetering on over-=proofing to go double.
Is to determine if lack of oven spring is gluten formation. Aim for a tacky dough. Start off at a low hydration and slowly add in more water till it feels right. Then give it a good old fashioned knead for 10 minutes. Cover the bowl and allow the dough to double. Many sourdough recipes call for a modest bulk rise but I prefer the doubling rule of thumb. Not always necessary but it works well. 80% risen should be good too but you can push it. Then you can try shaping twice to make sure the dough is taut enough. Shape the first time into a round thrn cover and rest. After which shape again. Then in order to establish of the scoring is an issue try proofing smooth side up so when you flip the dough over there's no need to score the dough as the seam will be a natural scoring. It does look like the scoring has also compromised the oven spring.
As I indicated in my original post, I already shape twice (pre-shape and shape).
I also fail to see how the scoring compromises oven spring. I have other loaves where I have a perfectly good ear and sitll no oven spring.
"...I also fail to see how the scoring compromises oven spring..."
From our Doc.Dough:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51176/inoven-slash-dynamics-video
https://youtu.be/8kVab9PNhYM
Yippee
Your description sounds like you are baking in a Dutch Oven, especially since you didn't mention steam. I'd say to try underproofing. The bake will start from a lower volume but will rise more and be more rounded.
From the crust appearance of your picture I think the loaf could have been baked longer, or longer outside of the pan. But that wouldn't affect the rise or shape, since they are set early in the bake cycle.
Here's a picture of a loaf I baked in a Dutch Oven starting from cold. It's 30% whole wheat. Is this the kind of shape you were thinking of?
_DSC0529_lzn.jpg
That is exactly the roundedness I am seeking! As you can see, I have one person saying push all the way to double on bulk ferment, you are suggesting much less. I have done both and everything in between with little improvement, which is why I'm perplexed.
I thought by referencing some people like Maurizio Leo it would avoid writing down my whole method, but since you have what I'm seeking, I'll offer it here and hope you might be so kind as to compare it with your own method:
1. Ingredients: 400g. strong bread flour (Haydens on this one), 50g of some other whole grain flours, 20% vigorous starter, 70-80% hydration, 2% salt.
2. Mix with some kneading, hour autolyse, 3-4 stretches-and-folds over first two hours. Bulk ferment usually about 4-4.5 hours to about a 50% rise, dough temp consistent at 78dF.
3. Pre-shape, rest, shape. Cold ferment overnight.
4. Score and into dutch oven at 475 for 20 minutes, 20 minutes uncovered at 450.
As you can see, a pretty classic method. I am attaching another photo that is also typical -- great ear, good color (for me) but again no roundedness.
Ear loaf.jpg
I hope you might spot something. I look forward to hearing from you.
If you used to get that kind of shape and now you don't, and the same is true for a range of flours and techniques, then those details probably don't have much to do with it.
I'm happy to share my technique but it probably won't make much difference. BTW, I can get a similar shape baked free on a baking steel with a DO - see attached image.
_DSC0435_lzn.jpg
My basic recipe is very similar to yours, except that my hydration is generally a little lower, say 67% - 72% depending on whether you count the flour and water in the starter. However, my procedure is much simpler - that's what I have worked on the most over the years, getting a long-fermentation procedure that is as easy as it could be and still produce wonderful flavor. So here goes, beginning after the starter, flour(s), salt, and liquids are combined. The target bulk fermentation time is 11 - 12 hours at a 72 - 74 deg F room temperature. I usually start the batch in mid-evening, planning to bake mid-late morning the next day (I'm retired so I can play with the schedule)..
1. Mix by hand until no dry flour or lumps are left;
2. Cover and let sit for 1/2-hr. Not critical, could be several hours;
3. Knead by hand until some resistance forms. No need to do a window pane test, or to get the most out of the dough at this point, since it will relax over time. Typically this would take less than five minutes. After the wait in step 2 (I hesitate to call it an "autolyse") the dough should be fairly smooth and pleasant to handle with a bit of spring, just from the time involved.
4. Cover. Do one or a few stretch&fold sessions in the first few hours. When and how many makes little difference.
5. In the morning, the dough has typically tripled in volume. I don't go by that, though. I know that if it has gotten rising , and the intended time has gone by, it's going to work no matter the exact amount of rise. If it's risen more than that but the time is early (e.g., I got up early and took a look), I may deflate the dough gently, stretching it as I do. I want to get it to the target time window without actually overinflating to the point that it collapses. At this point I could shape and bake it with good results, but as we know the longer the time under hydration and fermentation, the better the flavor is going to be.
6. After 11 or 12 hours of bulk fermentation, decant the dough, and make a preform, stretching as you do. I try to get enough strength and resistance at this point that I'm pretty sure the dough will hold its shape during proofing.
7. Rest for say 10 or 15 minutes, not critical. After all, it's still fermenting.
8. Shape the preform to the final shape. I usually make a batarde but as you see I like boules too. If the dough seems firm I will shape it with little stretching, if not I will stretch it a little more.
9. Proof. This usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours, but depending on the starter and flours, it could be as short as 1 hour.
10. Preheat oven as soon as the final shaping is done - well, unless I'm going to bake in a DO starting from cold, of course. The longer the oven can preheat, the better. Just because the oven sensor thinks it's at temperature doesn't mean that all parts of the oven have become heat-soaked properly.
11. Score and bake. I usually use lots of steam unless of course I'm using s DO.
Now I'm aware that this process is likely to produce a loaf with little if any sourness. Fine - I don't like much sourness, anyway. Once in a while, especially with a rye bread, yes. but otherwise I'm happy with a mellow, buttery, rich flavor and that's what I usually get.
So - that's my standard process, and it's easy, and consistently gives good results for almost no time or effort.
I will sometimes retard the dough or shaped loaf. For retarding the dough, once it has started to rise I don't think it makes much difference when you retard it, as long as you give it enough time at room temperature. My rule of thumb is that the dough will ferment for about an hour after you put it into the refrigerator, and take about an hour after taking it out to warm up enough to get into the swing of rising again.
Now how will this help with @SkipII's problem? I'm not sure. If it were me, I'd go down to 65 - 67% hydration, and make sure the loaf is a little underproofed - just to reduce sagging while proofing and baking. If that had good results, I'd start sneaking the hydration up little by little.
But what, really has caused this change? Since it happens across different recipes and flour mixes, it has to be something common to all. The most obvious ones seem to me to be these:
1. A change in the humidity where the flour is stored;
2. A change in the room temperature where the fermentation goes on;
3. A change in SkipII's technique that he doesn't notice any more (I think this is less likely);
4. A change in the starter's properties. Perhaps the yeast and other organisms and acidity have changed to a different equilibrium so that starter behaves differently. This could also effect the degree to which the flour's protein structure is attacked so that it starts to degrade sooner than before;
If 4) is the case, I'd try using more salt, which would possibly reduce the effect. Even if more salt is not to his taste, it would be interesting to try to see if this speculation has any truth. I'd also reduce the fermentation time, and see if that helped, since it would forestall degradation of the dough.
Another thing to try is to make a smaller loaf. A smaller loaf will have its shape more controlled by the surface tension of the dough than a larger one.. So it ought to end up rounder. Although now I usually make a single loaf with 15 oz of flour, about the same as SkipII's recipe, I routinely used to make two loaves from 20 oz of flour, or 10 oz each. That makes a 1-pound loaf of bread. I realize that the intent is to make the larger size, but in trying to get a handle on what's happening and what to do, it would be worth while to try.
For what it's worth, maybe not a lot, my money's on the starter.
Whew, that was long! Please forgive me.
"BTW, I can get a similar shape baked free on a baking steel with a DO"
That was supposed to read "BTW, I can get a similar shape baked free on a baking steel without a DO"
Pretty thorough treatment. Thank you. I want to read it through a few times more and see what I might be missing. You say your process is similar but simpler. Actually, maybe I was offering too much information, but my process is exactly the same, except I follow typical methods and put the shaped dough right into cold ferment, rather than another hour on the counter. I can try that.
The bigger question for me is that you don't give your percentages but I cannot imagine bulk fermenting for 11-12 hours at 72dF without badly over-proofing. You must have your starter percentage down to 5-10%?
Lastly (and self-diagnosing here) your loaves are notably darker. Some of that may be time and temp on the oven (yes, I do check mine with an oven thermometer, not the oven display), but it suggests to me your dough has a lot more available starch (sugar) left to caramelize. Mine are almost grayish in comparison.
i think tpassin’s advice is really good; i’d try their suggestions first. but your loaves remind me of what i experienced when i switched from baking in an enameled dutch oven (mine is a dansk, not as heavy/thick as a le creuset or lodge) to a clay baker (la cloche): the oven spring was greatly reduced and the crust was more dull, less shiny and blistered than i was used to getting with the dansk.
i’ve gotten both the spring and the crust sheen back by misting the dough and inside of the baker before i put the lid on when it goes in the oven. i’m thinking it’s unlikely that you’ve recently changed pans, but maybe misting your dough in its pan before baking would be worth a try? it looks like you’re using a lodge combo cooker, which is not enameled and might benefit from a little extra steam?
just my $0.02,
c
FWIW, the first loaf I showed above was baked in a Lodge combo DO without any misting. Can't hurt to try, though!
oh, i didn’t mean your loaves needed more steam; you’re not struggling with low oven spring or a dull, pale crust. the same equipment in different situations can behave differently. most people don’t seem to have to add steam to their clay bakers, but i do. (shrug)
By "combo cooker", I mean the pan at the link below. There are other DOs that are sometimes called "combo cooker":
https://www.academy.com/p/lodge-combo-cooker
Yes, good suggestion, but the first loaf was in my enameled DO, the second in the Lodge combo cooler (cast iron). I always mist the dough, and sometimes drop an ice cube in a pre-heated DO or cooker. Still perplexed!
it’s not steam, then. i would do as tpassin suggests, as far as oven spring is concerned:
- try lowering hydration — below 70%
- consider making smaller loaves
but the mystery of your pale crust: like you, it makes me think something is going on with available sugars. i know you said you’ve tried different strong bread flours, but is the one you are currently using malted? (e.g., central milling artisan baker’s craft plus bread flour is malted, whereas their high mountain bread flour is not malted.)
Yes, if the crust stays pale despite a high temperature (or long) bake, it could be that the crust is low on sugars. That would suggest too long a fermentation time, which would fit in with a change in the starter's characteristics.
Let's think here. There are two symptoms: flatter bread and pale bread. Too long a fermentation (for the starter, dough, and conditions) will tend to cause slacker or even degraded dough, and could have less oomph left for the bake. It could also use up much of the available sugars, which in turn could cause a pale crust.
But SkipII hasn't said that the dough felt unusually slack or weak at shaping. That suggests it's more lack of yeast food rather than dough degradation
Looking back at the baking temperature, it seems to me that the bread is going from the refrigerator right to the oven without preheating the DO. If that's right, I would expect to need a longer baking time than SkipII said, maybe 15 - 20 minutes longer in the DO. But remember, we're looking at something that has changed, not something that never worked well.
Here's something else for SkipII to try. In my experience, 1/4 or 1/2 tsp of instant yeast acts much like 2 - 3 oz of fairly active (white flour) starter. The bulk fermentation time, degree of rise, etc, are pretty much the same. The bread will taste pretty good because of the bulk ferment time and cold retard, but not as rich and complex as with a sourdough starter**. How about if SkipII duplicates his process except using 1/2 tsp of yeast instead of starter? The water might need to be adjusted a bit. Otherwise, use the regular process.
If this produces a loaf with good rise and rounding, and hopefully a deeper color, I'd say this would be a good reason to think the starter has some problem or at least has changed. If not, something else has been going on.
I seem to be tasking SkipII with more and more experiments. Sorry, SkipII!
**You can improve the flavor by adding an ounce of liquid strained from yogurt, where the yogurt has live cultures, This will supply some lactic acid and LAB organisms. This approach (a tiny amount of yeast plus yogurt liquid) can get you surprisingly close to a nice mild sourdough bread, though not a sour one.
are potential causes, and scoring might exacerbate the problems.
Is there a crumb shot?
Yippee
This is turning into a nice group excursion, and I appreciate everyone leaning in on it as well has hoping it provides interesting or informative to others. I'll try to address some of the comments, questions, and suggestions here to keep this narrative a bit tidy! What concerns me is that I see some pretty nice loaves out there on YouTube et al that represent basic methods, not work-a-rounds. I prefer to untangle this without feeling my situation is to unusual as to require a work-a-round.
1. I will not add instant yeast to my sourdough. I will not do that, said the Cat In the Hat. :=)
2. I rarely do a cold start. I usually pre-heat my DO or combo cooker to 475. I will buy another oven temp gauge, because too low of a bake temp could hamper oven spring and leave to that undercooked look.
3. I do not have a picture but I took my errant loaf to a friend's house for dinner last night and sneaked a peek at the crumb. It was generally fine - certainly not obviously over- or under-proofed. Hold that thought...
4. As far as bulk ferment time, we've already had one suggestions of (yikes!) 11-12 hour of bulk ferment time at 72dF. Hard to imagine how you can do that unless you have the starter percentage down to 5-10%. I go by the condition of the dough anyway, not a strict timeline.
3. Yes, the pallid color of the crust is nagging me, so I went back a few months and found some old loaves. The pics attached. The concept of Occam's Razor Theory is that when an outcome changes, what is the simplest explanation or last thing you did or changed. Here's my dope slap revelation: I changed from Central Milling Baker's Craft Artisan Bread flour to Hayden's. Those are nicely rounded with a nice open crumb. So, yes, I think at least one of the culprits is the flour -- it's not bad flour ((Bread Proof in AZ used to use it, as too has Maurizio Leo.).
So, what I'll do the next time is add some diastatic malt to the flour mix. I'll push my bulk ferment time out to about 7-8 hours if I can keep the tmep down to 72 in this summer weather.
Sorry this is long but I'm retired too and this has been a great learning experience, even if the cause might have been right under my nose the whole time.
Bread 1.jpg
Glory Hallelujah!
"we've already had one suggestions of (yikes!) 11-12 hour of bulk ferment time at 72dF."
glad you seem to have hit upon the likely cause: different flour. i’m sure hayden mills flour is good, but new flour always requires adjustments, usually of the hydration — at least. so, in addition to adding some malt to that flour, you might play around with how much water is actually the right amount to get the consistency/results you were getting with central milling ABC+.
fwiw, i wouldn’t add diastatic malt *and* increase the fermentation time. malting will tend to increase fermentation activity, so you could easily overshoot. and, as i think was clarified below, tpassin uses less pre-fermented flour; i don’t think they were suggesting you keep your starter percentage the same and bulk longer.
-c
Bread 2.jpg
Bread 3.jpg
"As far as bulk ferment time, we've already had one suggestions of (yikes!) 11-12 hour of bulk ferment time at 72dF. Hard to imagine how you can do that unless you have the starter percentage down to 5-10%. I go by the condition of the dough anyway, not a strict timeline. "
Well, it's not as strict as I may have sounded. It's more of a target and if the dough seemed to need it, I'd break off the bulk ferment early.
Aha! I didn't put a different flour on my list because I thought that SkipII had said he tried a range of flours. But it makes sense. Some of those Hayden flours don't say they have malt in them.
Good old common Gold Medal Unbeached All Purpose flour actually does a very good job and the majority of my loaves in the past used it. Its ingredient list does include malt.
Yes, I might use 2 or 3 oz of 100% hydration starter for 15 oz of flour. My goal is specifically to get a long bulk ferment to improve flavor. I've done longer, even 14 - 15 hours, but you start risking deterioration of the dough so I don't usually try for it.
If you had good spring before but you can no longer achieve it...Then it is not about new methods, its about trouble shooting what has changed.
Start with the simplest items (that are quickest to test for) one at a time...
Most people overlook WATER but changes in the catchment or water supply can wreak havoc with natural yeast starters.
You may still even be using the same brand of cleaning products but the ingredients may have changed...
Thanks to all for weighing in on this. The range of views certainly prompted me to examine each step. I broke the rules of experimentation by changing more than one factor, but certainly the results this morning are a big step in the right direction.
My sense is that the flat loaves were a coincident combination of a different flour (needing different hydration and lacking my customary malt), too short of a bulk ferment, and possibly some oven temp irregularities.
I went with 70% hydration with 20% starter and a tbs. of malt to boost the sugar content. I gauged bulk ferment by the percent rise (70%) and condition of the dough, but it ended up being 6.5 hours total from mix-to-shape at 74F. I also gave my oven a little extra time to make sure my DO is fully up to temp (475F). (I bought a infrared laser thermometer on Amazon Prime Day for 40% off!))
Thanks for staying iwth me on it. I appreciate it very much.
Hayden 2.jpg
Whew! Nice job. How'd it taste compared to your usual? The IR thermometer is a good move. A few things about its use - 1. Check several spots. You'd be surprised how much variation there can be. 2. Remember that it's measuring infra-red, not visible light. A surface can be shiny or black in infrared but not so much in the visible range. So a reading on a shiny pan might be lower than the pan's actual temperature, since a shiny surface emits less light from its own heat. 3. My own IR thermometer, which is quite old, is very sensitive to room temperature. For example in the winter, if I stand in the open doorway and point it at the ground outside, and keep repeating the measurement, in a very short time the reading will start changing a lot as the instrument cools down. So don't let the instrument heat up much while checking say the oven.
Helpful suggestions, thank you. The model I've getting does have adjustable emmisivity, which should help with the varying surfaces.
I just read this comparison of high-vs-low hydration effects on rise and other properties:
https://breadtopia.com/no-knead-whole-wheat-sourdough-hydration-comparison
Makes a noticeable difference in my baking. Probably due to the difference in emissivity. Best wishes. Dave. 😎
My black DOs (most of them) tend to scorch the bottom of the loaf. I handle that by folding a disk of aluminum foil to fit the pot, and covering that with a disk of parchment paper. No more scorching.
The parchment disk serves to keep the dough from working its way into folds and creases in the aluminum disk.