November 22, 2022 - 1:10pm
Retard Sourdough rye Bulk Fermentation or Proof
I'm making (or trying to make) Old School Deli Rye from "The Rye Baker". This is a sourdough rye similar to the Light Rye in "Bread". Both are spiked with commercial yeast in the final dough.
For scheduling convenience (baking during super off peak electricity rates) I'd like to do an overnight retard during the process; I could retard either the bulk fermentation or the proofing.
Neither Ginsburg (TRB) nor Hamelman (Bread) mention retarding as an option at either stage in their formulas for this bread. Hamelman sometimes writes that a formula is or is not suitable for retarding; he is silent on this one.
So what do you think? Retard the bulk fermentation or the proofing in the fridge overnight? Or don't retard at all?
Thanks
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I retard wheat/rye bread all the time. I usually do bulk, but I don't think it should make a difference.
I retard rye in bulk all the time, but don't use any commercial yeast so it's a different thing. I just leave the commercial yeast out and do a long slow bulk in the fridge.
My limited experience has been that my all dark rye starter goes completely dormant in our fridge set to 39 F / 4 C. I don't think I would get any bulk fermentation at all in teh fridge without some commercial yeast.
if you take a knife to that dough and cut a quick slash to look inside the raw dough, you may see the advantage of retarding. You should see well dispersed tiny bubbles everywhere. When the dough warms up either by proofing or in the oven, these tiny bubbles expand. If you don't see them, then let the dough proof a little longer before chilling or get more yeast into the dough from the beginning. Up to you. I also keep my fridge at 4°C.
Retarding rye doughs has a lot to do with the amount of rye in the recipe, the percentage of rye to wheat flour. The more wheat, the better the retard. Why? Because rye matrix when chilled becomes stiffer than wheat matrix. The more wheat in the recipe the more the dough can stretch and still trap gas to rise in the fridge.
A pure 100% rye starter or loaf will not rise much in the fridge as the gas tends to leak out. Add yeast to it to guarantee a rise and it may work just the opposite, breaking cold stiff rye matrix and collapsing the starter or dough. I love my rye starter in the fridge because it rarely doubles in there whereas a wheat starter of the same amount always needs more head room or a bigger jar.
Thanks for the insightful comments on retarding rye.
a rye, I would do it during the bulk and not judge the bulk by volume. Then when the dough has warmed up a bit, shape do the main proofing for volume.
I try not to, because it tends to get too sour for my taste, but there's no particular reason you could not do it. Of course in this case sourness is not an issue, particularly if you use white rye.
In the event, the first sponge, after overnight in the proofer at 70 F, didn't look as if it had done anything. After I mixed the 2nd sponge, I upped the proofer to 72 F, and that did the trick - in 5 hrs the 2nd sponge was doubled. I mixed the final dough and bulk fermented at 72 F; the dough looked and felt good.
I divided the dough and shaped a boule and a batard, proofed them for 30 minutes at room temp and then in the fridge overnight for an early morning bake at super off-peak electricity rates. Here is the result (along with this morning's Thanksgiving challah).
https://photos.app.goo.gl/S6YpPU7m21d8evBb9
I don't have crumb photos because nothing has been sliced yet.
can make a rye dough stiffer and trap less gas especially in the range under 72°F. Temperature and fineness of the rye flour will show differences.
Your bakes look great! I don't think there is a reason not to do a long fermentation of rye if it works for you and you enjoy it, but I thought I'd clarify that Mr Hamelman does address longer rye fermentation in Bread. I don't know which edition you have, but check out the paragraph headed "Bulk Fermentation" in the Production Notes to the chapter on Sourdough Rye Breads (p. 205 of the 2nd edition and p. 211 of the 3rd edition):
"Bulk fermentation time decreases as the rye percentage increases. One reason for this is that in rye breads there is little of the gas-trapping properties present in wheat gluten, so lengthy bulk fermentation will not improve dough volume and crumb structure. Further, there is little need to have a lengthy fermentation in order to develop flavor in rye breads. The incorporation of nicely ripened sourdough into the dough injects it with substantial flavor. Lengthy bulk fermentation has the tendency to overacidify the dough, resulting in bread with an unpleasantly sour flavor. Therefore, as the percentage of rye in a formula increases, there is a corresponding decrease in fermentation time."
Hope this helps. Happy baking! 🙂
Thanks. Hamelman sometimes mentions in each formula that it can be retarded with folds at so-many hours; sometimes he says that this formula does not do well with retardation. He doesn't mention retarding for the Deli rye specifically. Retarding the proofing followed by an early morning bake fits my schedule, and the cold dough seems easier to score.
I haven't noticed excessive sourness, but I'm a sourpuss anyway and my palate isn't great.
I just bought the 3rd edition as an ebook, for the new formulas and the ebook convenience.