Micro Bakery Starter / Levain problems
Hi there, I run a tiny bakery in Devon, England with my business partner. We make bread twice a week, and our standard sourdough (mix of white / wholemeal / rye) is mixed by hand in a large plasterer's trough, 50kg per batch. We are both fairly amateur, but have been producing some really nice bread fairly consistently over the last 10 months since we started trading. However, twice previously, and now it seems to be happening a third time, the dough just starts to go all wrong, and we cannot figure out what's happening. Currently, mid-way through the bulk (which is usually 3-4 hours at a dough temp of 27C, 3 x S+F every 30 mins then once or twice more) I can see the dough looks slack and wet, even though the recipe hasn't changed. Gluten seems ok - can do windowpane - but it's not taught. Dough spreads like crazy when shaping, doesn't rise overnight in the fridge (at 5C for 18 hours), doesn't rise a huge amount in the oven (we have 2 rofco B40s), but interestingly has good crust colour and carmelisation and a tender crumb.
Previously when things went wrong (things got so bad the last two times that an entire batch of dough turned to pancake batter) it was down to the starter, and when we started using a new one everything got better. It's the obvious answer. But what I don't understand is WHY the starter is failing. We keep a 100% rye starter fed at 50/50. Since we bake twice a week, the starter is kept in my home fridge in a small plastic yogurt container. The day before making dough, I take out 1 tsp a feed it with about 250g water and rye at about 7am. About 6 hours later I take about 1 tbsp and feed it with 400g water and 400g rye. At 10:30 pm, I feed the production levain (50/50 white/wholemeal) at a 1:7:7 ratio, hold back the leftover as my new starter that goes in the fridge, and the levain sits overnight and is usually ripe by 7:30 in the morning when we mix the dough. We shift the seed ratios for feeding depending on the season.
If anyone has any thoughts to share as to what might be going wrong I would be grateful. Like I said, for long stretches we are producing lovely bread, and then suddenly the dough starts slowly falling apart - it seems to happen over a few weeks. I've done experiments with different flour, water, water temps, etc. but I'm pretty sure it's the starter. Just don't know why.
Many thanks!!! Julia
To start? One teaspoon starter is about 5g. A 5:250:250 feeding (starter: water: flour) is way too much food and only 6 hrs of fermentation. I can see many problems with maintaining using such a small inoculate. Are the figures and amount correct? Just double checking. Any temps to add to these figures? Surly I got things all messed up.
Oh, and welcome to TFL!
"...take out 1 tsp a feed it with about 250g water and rye at about 7am. About 6 hours later I take about 1 tbsp and feed it with 400g water and 400g rye. At 10:30 pm, I feed the production levain (50/50 white/wholemeal) at a 1:7:7 ratio, hold back the leftover as my new starter that goes in the fridge, and the levain sits overnight and is usually ripe by 7:30 in the morning when we mix the dough
Might want to check the posting on Those pesky thiol compounds. Sounds similar.
Thanks for your response - yes that was a mistake on the first feeding, I end up with about 250g total starter, so I feed it with 1 (large) tsp starter (probably more like 10g), 125g flour, 125g water. Still a very small inoculate, which I've been using due to the acidification of the starter while it's being kept in the fridge, but .... Perhaps that's unnecessary? I always wait to do the second feed until it looks ready, doubled in volume, loads of bubbles, smells ripe, etc.
Temperature - I was thinking about that while not sleeping last night, and I think might be the culprit. We had a period of hard frost a couple of weeks ago and temps in the bakery went way down. We tried to do some research on what the highest temperature water is safe to use, couldn't find any definitive answers online, asked another bakery who said 47 degrees C. That worked for us while the temps were so low, but we got lazy about doing the DDT calculations the last couple of weeks while weather got warmer, still mixed with 47C water which was way too hot. The last batch of dough I mixed that went wrong was nearly 32 degrees C just after mixing. Do you think that's the problem?
Will check out the thiol posts as well. Thanks!
I tend to double up the inoculate before jumping to the warmer water temps. Think of your body temp, 47° would kill you if you had a fever that high. Sourdough Yeast and bacteria like temperatures that we like.
I also wonder about how soon the leftover starter went back into the fridge after you removed most of it. Let the bacteria build up so the starter starts out with a lower pH when next fed. It is important to let the starter defend itself when inoculations are small. Fresh flour has a lot of bacteria to suppress as soon as the water hits it.
Ok - that's a great point and we will do that. We've been using 20% levain for the final dough mix. Would you suggest 25% or 30%?
How does changing the percentage of levain correlate to the DDT? Should we not be so concerned with a DDT of 27C if we are raising the amount of levain?
Yes I always let the starter get nice and bubbly before putting back in the fridge. A bit of background, the reason I use such a small inoculate for the first feed is that last winter I think the starter went proteolytic - I got in a habit of using such a small amount out of sheer terror that would happen again.
Many thanks again.
the first elaboration, to get to off to a good start, keeping the rest of the levain steps the same. You may only need to do this on the occasion of a drop in temp and resume normal, smaller inoculates when temps are back to normal.
Hi,
I agree with the other posting in regards to the starter. Also, I'm curious as to where you source your white flour which would undoubtedly be the gluten back-bone to your loaves. Are you unknowingly using a soft wheat over a hard wheat? Could your source be using different grains (soft versus hard wheat) to produce the flours you are purchasing?
We get our flour from Shipton Mill - so I don't think that's the culprit, although we convinced ourselves last time it happened that they must have swapped cake flour for our bread flour!
a small inoculate will eventually result in more acid in the levain.
This may be happening: Giving an initial feeding of one to twelve (that first teaspoon) is boosting yeast growth the bacteria is struggling to produce like crazy. The faster bacteria and yeast colonies being selected to survive the process. Another large feeding follows. Let's guess that the tablespoon of starter is 30g and full of active yeast being fed 400g rye flour.... that's a one to 13 feeding ratio. Great boosting for the dough with a 1:7 ratio. That's fine.
Where I see the trouble sneaking up is with saving the levain sample. Correct me if I screwed up the facts. This sample is then used for the next batch instead of using the "mother" sourdough starter stored in the fridge. I believe the "mother starter" should have a separate maintenance and not be replaced by the leftover levain.
The "mother starter" should be able to inoculate many batches of levain. It is my opinion that the mother starter maintenance should not follow the same routine as the levain build. The levain is basically lopsided toward yeast with the fastest recovering bacteria selected (via the feeding process) to quickly recover and dominate when given the chance edging out slower strains of bacteria which may be benificial to the balance of the sourdough culture. This changes the starter profile with repetition.
Using a new starter corrected the problem. It restored the various colonies that were overpowered and reduced or eliminated in the levain building process.
Mini
Huge thanks for your attention to this. I'm always amazed by how little I know, even after totally immersing myself in this for the last year. If you don't mind, could you suggest a maintenance routine to follow for the starter? Since we bake twice a week, it seems like overkill to be keeping the starter at room temp and feeding twice a day between bakes. But I'm also aware that starters like continuity in feeding schedule, temps, inoculation, etc. so putting it in the fridge and taking it out again twice per week seems unwise.
Secondly, trying to clarify - so when feeding up a levain (over a couple of elaborations) for baking it's theoretically ok to use small inoculations of 1:5:5 or 1:7:7 or so. But the problem comes when you're maintaining a starter at those small inoculations? What's the "target" inoculation percentage for optimal starter performance? Or is that like asking how long is a piece of string?
Julia
Hey Julia - It sounds like you know some of the things you should do - as you say, starters like consistency, and consistent (good) treatment, maintaining a healthy, vigorous, and reliable starter, is one of the best insurance policies you have for making good sourdough bread on a consistent basis. When I'm on a twice a week baking schedule, I feed my starter twice every day...that is just the life of a baker (at least it isn't a 3x/day feeding schedule!)
I also second the recommendation to keep your starter separately, rather than relying on saving some levain...it is not only safer that way, it also maintains your consistency in starter treatment.
As for your problems, I'm hesitant to speculate, there are so many potential factors involved. I wouldn't get too hung up on what proportions others recommend, as it really depends on your starter and your conditions and your routine. For regular starter maintenance, 1:5:5 or 1:7:7 seems reasonable (I'm at 1:5:5 with a pretty active starter, even though I operate in somewhat chilly conditions at 20C/68F)...I use a much smaller percentage to inoculate my levain, as it gets treated a bit differently. But that is just me...if you get consistency on your desired schedule and have all the signs of a healthy starter (not just rise and bubbles, but smell and taste), then use whatever works, tweaking ratios, time, temps, hydration, and flours as needed to dial in something over time that works for you and the starter.
Mini may be right that the ratios, timing, and temps you use are making your levain susceptible to going off, if the LAB's from your starter get so diluted that they don't get a chance to get established (they do have a longer lag time in their growth cycle to get going than the wild yeasts typically do). Again, it is hard to say. You may want to drill down further on your levain building here...
Best of luck...
Thanks for your response - would you mind sharing your levain build routine?
So - bread is back on track now after carefully feeding two starters (one rye and one wheat) for the last week maintaining it separately from the levains. I could only grab a quick pic before the market so no shot of the crumb, but the loaves were super light and very tender inside, which is what we are going for, so phew! I'm most taken with the smell of the starters now - so much more complex, sweet, and fruity, with an almost grassy overtone (almost like freshly harvested wheat). I'm still getting an eggy/sulphur smell when I lift the lid on the levain in the morning, but it's not nearly as pronounced as it has been in the past. Does anyone know what causes that smell?
Another question while I'm at it (and being greedy for this excellent advice): this last batch of dough was super sticky during shaping. At first I was worried it might be falling apart, but actually it held its shape well on the bench. Shaping had to be super light because it was very "proofy", but it didn't tear, and once in the bannetons and into the fridge for the night everything went to plan and the bread came out great. So my question is, what causes sticky dough? Recipe is about 80% hydration, 30/70 wholemeal/white bread flour, 4 hour bulk at 27C dough temp, 4 folds, all in a big plaster's trough mixed by hand.
Thanks! Julia
i believe this will decrease as the pH drops in the starter and you settle into a routine.. Be sure to let the starter reach peak activity and drop back or fall before feeding. Give the starter the chance to build up acids so it can defend itself from bacteria introduced with fresh flour.
The sulfer smell is more likely to occur when first starting up a wild starter with whole wheat when pH indicators read high. (Check the water pH and track it too if it fluctuates during the year.) But as the culture develops, the bacteria will be supressed. In an established starter, it can mean the feedings are being rushed which can happen for a number of reasons, most likely a drop in temperature slowing fermentation. Solutions may include feeding less flour and/or more water or warming the starter slightly during feeding and for a short time after feeding letting the starter cool down as activity becomes visible. Feeding less during cooler parts of the day, or when the room cools down.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1040/lesson-squeeze-more-sour-your-sourdough#comment-421582