Stone baked bread bottom has no appeal
Hi,
I'm having problems with bread not baking underneath when using my baking stone. The rest of the surface looks fine, tastes great but lacks depth of colours and harder crust to the bottom. I initially suspected the stone wasn't getting hot enough, so I tried going from a 30 minute oven preheat at 230C (max temp) to a full 1 hour preheat and still having same issue.
I experimented and did 2 sourdough loaves, a Boule and a sort of Batard shape from the same batch. After shaping both, the Boule retarded in the fridge for 15 hours, and the Batard was left to prove at room temperature for about 4 hours.
Both baked at 230C for an initial 10mins and then reduced to 210C for a further 40mins. Both (and most breads I've made) have had great oven spring using the stone, yet after the 50mins baking time the bottom surface looks nothing like the rest of the bread.
Also, noticed from earlier bakes in the past, that when I retard the prove it always cracks and blows out on the underside of the bread. (see Boule, it kinda did the same thing again)
I've posted some pics to show end results. At this stage I'm only guessing it's likely something to do with the baking environment but would love to hear you guys valued opinions and advice as how to avoid this.
Thanks! ;)
heating element is broken? See if it heats up all by itself when set to "bottom heat."
and I kinda wish I had a dual element oven tbh, but I'm currently using convection (UK based).
Since my last post I cut into the middle of the Boule and as you can see the middle part seems to have not even sprung as fast the outer and just feels dense...
...tunnelling. That's where the baker over-proves (or sometimes over-hydrates) the loaf but a skin has formed so it collapses beneath the surface leaving tunnels in the dough. Most of us will have suffered from it. I have. Many times.
I have to say that in every other respect your loaves look pretty good. If you want a deep crust on the bottom, just flip the loaf over and leave it in the still-hot but switched-off oven for another five minutes. However, because ovens and temps vary so much, you might have to experiment a little with the time to get the crust you're after.
Thanks! appreciate you still think they're looking good. So do I every time I eagerly remove a loaf from the oven and then lift to look under just to be disappointed again and again. They do taste great though :)
Interesting, had never heard of this problem. The recipes I was following said to retard between 12-15 hrs. But if you're saying this could be a problem caused by over-proofing, I wonder if my starter is perhaps stronger and speeding that process?
Is that possible? I know that when I feed my the wee fella he comes to life and doubles in almost exactly 4 hrs. That's wether I feed him 1:2:2 or 1:1:1
I'm also wondering if I were to retard the bulk fermentation instead and then simply prove at room temp instead? How do pro bakeries get around this problem I wonder? Seems like a lot of fridge space required for shaped loaves!
Though must be said I've been having this under-baked bottom problem for quite some time now. And that was with normal quick white breads also, where I've simply used commercial yeast with way shorter ferments and proves. Unless I've always been over proofing my breads? Though I doubt that has been the case. I've had lovely consistent crumb structure with the addition of under-baked bottoms.
...you're okay. Too strong is not an issue. Under-fed is. Four hours is short but not surprising this time of year. It'll take twice as as long (at least) in mid-Winter.
Opinion on cold retarding divides into the two camps you identify. But there are factors many folk forget to mention when they suggest doing one or the other when they publish their recipes. In order to cold retard (CR) shaped loaves for a fixed period of time from a recipe you have to know the dough temperature going in and the temperature of the fridge/chiller. The best bread recipes (Hamelman or The Weekend Bakers, for example) will specify these. Many don't and the unwary are left with under- or over-proved loaves. Experimenting with different CR lengths is the only way to work out what works for your particular kitchen setup. But it's also good practice to learn about Desired Dough Temperatures because this gives you consistency.
Pretty much the same advice applies to bulk fermenting in CR but it's more forgiving as you have to leave your dough in the fridge for a heroic length of time to completely exhaust the yeast. The only (but significant) challenge is that you need to get used to judging when cold dough you've then shaped is fully proved. It is more difficult than with room temperature dough but, as ever, there's loads of good advice on TFL on how to do that. Just use the Search tool. Same with Desired Dough Temps.
As to which bakeries prefer, it just depends on their production schedule. Both are useful. I use CR for bulk fermentation a lot because of it's flexibility (and the improved flavour), but when I'm ultra-busy on a Saturday morning I also have shaped loaves stacked in CR and ready to go straight into the oven. However, that is with strictly controlled time slots. When I miss them I have over-proved loaves that were sometimes four days in the making but with very poor oven spring. Frustrating.
And I'm puzzled by the focus on your baking stone. If your oven light says you've reached the heat you set, then it should be ready. The stone keeps absorbing heat until that moment. It is extremely unlikely to be too cold. However, have you calibrated the oven recently with a digital oven thermometer? Place the probe on top of your stone. You do need to do that regularly because oven thermostats can drift with age (usually to a lower temp than you've set).
It's always good to know that there are many ways of doing the same thing. I guess schedules are vital and each bakery or professional has their own. Being in control of every possible factor now seems so obvious to achieve predicatble results.
I've since been delving into DDT and researching a bit more and this is really fascinating stuff. Suddenly it all starts to make sense. Brewed beer in the past and this method is very similar to aerating the wort with the addition of cold water to bring the whole thing down to a desired temp for the yeast. Bread really is solidified beer, it's so true!
Phew, my starter is ok then. I do feed it every morning 1:1:1 though I'm wondering if feeding it twice per day may be best during these warmer days. Currently 20-22C indoor temp here in Scotland. I'm completely new to sourdough, tbh the above pics are of my first ever sourdough bake so have still loads to learn!
Perhaps prior to getting too into this I should look at resolving the most basic of needs, and that is a good baking environment. Like you I'm puzzled, though there seems to be some great advice here that is helping figure it out. I think like Mini has suggested it may well be the size of the baking stone... It just fits into the oven. I will have to try using a round one and see if not remove it completely and bake without.
Will keep trying stuff and post some succesful results, soon I hope!
Thanks again
Depending on how high or low it is in your oven, one thing you might be able to try is having it lower down in the oven so it's closer to the bottom element.
you should try to bake without the stone.
Cool, so do you suggest I simply use a baking tray instead? I do have a dutch oven, but I'm trying to perfect baking without it as I'd like to scale up my baking so I can make at least 2 loaves per bake.
Just a thought on the back of all this. Because you made me think about elements earlier and the obvious advantage to having an element directly below the stone - I started thinking that perhaps the position alone of the stone could be a plausible issue? So I had a look inside the oven and noticed that I always position the stone directly below the fan, so maybe this is restricting heat to circulate directly below? mmmmmm I wonder...
I looks, at first sight, that the stone is not hot enough for some reason. Does your oven have both a top and a bottom element? Perhaps the bottom element is not working. Sometimes the stone will interfere with the thermostat in the oven as well, possibly causing it to switch off the elements before the set temperature is reached. Do you have an oven thermometer? May you should invest in one (they're pretty cheap, actually) and put it on the stone in the oven to see how hot it actually is after 1/2 an hour or an hour.
Also, what kind of stone is it? As Mini suggests, try baking bread on a heated sheet pan in the oven to see if that makes a difference. The fact that the loaf is swelling and bursting on the bottom suggests that the bottom is the coolest bit, or the last part to crust over. That would also contribute to the holes at the top of the loaf and the relatively dense, wet crumb at the bottom and in the middle.
Sorry hadn't seen this comment as I was writing the above ;)
Yeah I decided to get an oven thermometer to best help with accuracy to make sure oven was getting hot enough. I noticed that oven goes as far as 230C but can actually get it up to 240C when preheating and left undisturbed.
So getting pretty hot, though obviously not hot enough to jump start the centre of the doughI was also tempted to get an IR thermometer to actually see what temp the stone itself is at. Thats should perhaps give a clearer idea.
But yes as Mini suggested, I think removing stone completely and trying with a baking sheet is definitely worth seeing the difference. Will need to have a few loaves at hand to test out different methods.
Will try in next few days and report back ;)
#1 Check out the bottom plate of the cold oven to see if you can remove it. Sometimes a second baking sheet is on the bottom and looks so much like part of the oven that no one thinks to remove it. Removing an extra baking sheet on the bottom might solve all the problems.
#2 Put the rather thin baking stone on the bottom shelf, one notch lower. The top of the loaf could be baking faster because it is higher in the oven, although with convection, this shouldn't happen. A smaller stone is also an option so is baking on a pie tin or griddle. (How much space is around the stone on all sides?) Did the stone come with the oven? Two fingers of space all around for a normal oven. Make sure it is not tight up against the back or front when loading.
Some tricks with convection include turning off the fan and/or oven for the first 5 -10 minutes so the loaf can rise without being blasted with heat to lop-side or set the upper crust too soon. Placing a hot steam pan in the oven for the "spring" might also help. Remove after 10 to 15 min. Or pre-heating the stone in the middle of the oven and move to the bottom shelf when loading the oven.
Lots of theories and things to try. :) hope you find something that works soon.
it sits too tight at the front and there seems to be about 10mm space on either sides. I did purchase this independently from oven. I will opt for a round one and see if that works. I did adjust the height of shelf last night with a quick white loaf and it did exact same thing. I also tried the method of stopping oven for 10 mins with plenty moisture but my oven drops far too low in those first 10 mins, almost 30C if not more and seemed more detrimental to its oven spring.
At least I have a better idea as to what the problem is now. Thank you!!
Back to the kitchen
explain a lot.
Try a simple round pizza pan to bake on. The air can move around it and attack the dough from all sides more evenly. (or a frying pan without the handle, or a small wok, or or or... go thru the cupboards and think dark, flat and round. maybe with sides maybe without. invert one over another if you find doubles...
I recommend putting an inverted bowl over the bread to self-steam for the first 15-20 minutes. This delays onset of browning on the top for basically that whole 20 minutes and that gives the bottom some extra time to cook more.
If you only have convection (with no bottom heating element), then it's likely your stone isn't getting hot enough. Air is a poor conductor of heat and without the radiant heat from a bottom heating element, it will probably take forever to heat the stone.
The photo is pretty dark, but I saved it and edited it, and it certainly looks like you have an element under the stone. Your oven probably has different settings, in the US one would be called "bake" and that would just use the bottom element, "convection" would just use the rear element. You definitely want to use the "bake" setting to preheat the stone. You may want that setting to cook the bread as well, or you may want to switch to convection once the stone is preheated. See if someone you know has an infrared thermometer. They are pretty inexpensive, but you would only need to use it once or twice to see the temp of the stone before you load the dough.