Gummy dense centre to sourdough boule
Hi everyone. I am new to the site however have been baking sourdough for around a year now with the help of TFL.
I need help as I am finding my white boules have a dense centre to them which has a slightly gummy texture of which sticks to my knife when slicing. This is only in the very centre of the loaf towards to the base (circled in image). This loaf is slightly overproofed but my normal loaves still have this gummy issue.
My recipe makes 6 x loaves of around 800g each:
2000g strong white organic flour
100g wholemeal
100g rye
1400g water
1080g 100% hydration mature white starter
50g malt extract
70g salt
Method:
Flours autolysed for 12 hours in fridge
Fridge temperature starter and malt extract added
Kneaded for 2 minutes in mixer low speed until medium gluten development. Salt added and kneaded for a further 2 minutes.
Bulk proofed at room temp (21oC approx) for 4 hours with a stretch and fold every hour.
Bulk fermentation in fridge for 24 hours.
Divided and preshaped. Bench rested for 30 minutes.
Shaped and proofed in banneton for 1 hour.
Baked at 220oC with steam for 10 minutes. Steam then extracted and temperature dropped to 200oC and baked for a further 30 minutes.final baked boule temperature is 98oC.
Left to cool before slicing.
Hope someone can help!
Many thanks!
On what did you place the boule for baking? Were you using a baking stone or steel? How long did you wait after the oven registered 220°C before placing the dough into the oven?
Ford
Hi ford. Thanks for the reply.The boules are baked on non stick steel pastry sheets of which I slide the loaves onto from peel once scored.
I preheated my oven for 30 minutes and checked it was up to temperature before loading (oven has a digital probe inside to check this) oven is a commercial combination oven and I use full fan (highest fan)
It does however take me around 1 minute to load all 6 loaves...do you think this would be a factor?
Many thanks
My concern was not whether the oven probe read the correct temp but whether the walls and the shelves and the stone or steel was up to temperature. The oven probe reads the air temperature but the walls and shelves may still be cooler. I allow at least 30 plus minutes after the oven probe reads the set temperature before placing the loaves in the oven. The loaf appears to me as being cooked on a cool surface. When you measured the internal temperature of the loaf,did the sensitive portion of the thermometer probe this portion?
Ford
Thanks ford. I will check the temperature of the steel on my next batch with my infa red thermometer. The trays do keep their heat very well.
The probe did register the problematic portion of the boule to be 98oC.
Thanks for your advice
I'm finding that when I develop my dough in the mixer for a longer period of time, it makes stronger, stretchier dough that rises better. Many of the 'artisan' type recipes are leaning towards minimal mixing and then relying on stretch and fold for development (combined with long slow ferment), but maybe try adding a couple of minutes to the second mixing and see how (or if) that changes things.
Thanks for the reply. I will try this method thankyou. Do you think my use of the high protein bread flour would cause my issue as opposed to an A.P flour?
Many thanks
Potentially, the hi-protein flour should give you a higher rise. However, that does require that you develop the gluten adequately. The suggestion of a slightly longer mix is worth trying.
I am also struck by your short final proofing versus very long fermentation with two (?) retardations. I'm not sure what relevance that has, frankly. It's not just that you have that dense area in your crumb. It's that the holes are not randomly distributed, as they should be. Could there be some gluten degradation? How is the bread's flavor?
For an 800g loaf, I think 50 minutes, mostly at 200dC is under-baking. I would bake an 800g boule at about 245dC for 45-50minutes. (I may prefer a bolder bake than you do.) The only breads I bake in this cool an oven are enriched breads and high-percentage ryes.
I'm going to stick my neck out and posit 1) under-developed gluten + 2) over-fermentation + 3) under-proofing, + 4) underbaking.
David
Hi David many thanks for your reply.
The reasons behind my method in this recipe are:
-the overnight refrigerated autolyse and long refrigerated bulk ferment was a method I took from a recipe I saw on tfl which had the sourdough characteristics I am after.
- I wanted to have the dough retarded for long periods of time to promote better flavour and promote more gluten development without the use of heavy kneading. I also wanted dough temperature to slowly rise in preparation for baking so the change of temperature was not too drastic. Hense the 1 hour of shaping/bench resting and 1 hour of final proofing. This causes my fdt to be around 18oC when loaded into oven.
-the other reasons for the retardation is because I am still learning and trying to improve my shaping skills and I find shaping when the dough is at 4oC is much better and easier than when at approx 21 -24oC
-I also found when retarding a shaped loaf in its basket overnight (after 4 hours of bulk proofing with s & f's) and baking after a 1 hour proof at room temp in the morning would always leave it overproofed with a giant air pocket from a collapsed dough under the top of crust.
Do bakers tend to bake their loaves straight from the fridge? Is this where I was going wrong?
As for the flavour; myself and friends love the flavour with great sourness but not too acidic. I'm afraid I do prefer a lighter colour to my crust however the final baked temperature of the boules is 98oC which would tell me the dough is fully baked (unless I am mistaken)
Would really appreciate your advice david.
Many thanks
If you are mixing after a 20-60 minute autolyse, bulk fermenting for 4 hours with S&F's, shaping then retarding overnight. And, if you are then baking after 1 hour at room temperature and finding large holes under the top crust, it's a shaping problem, not over-proofing. If I misunderstood some part of your procedure, please correct me.
There are two reasons for a gummy crumb, AFAIK. With a mostly wheat flour bread, under-baking would be the most common. (If you measured 98dC from the middle of the loaf, it is not under-baked, as you say.) The second is inadequate gluten to support the crumb structure, i.e., holes. This can be due to proteolysis with over-fermentation or to inadequate gluten development in the first place. Actually, I suppose these three factors can all co-occur.
In answer to your question: Many do bake their cold retarded loaves right out of the fridge. I don't. I wait until I feel the loaf is adequately proofed. I use loaf expansion and "the poke test" to judge this. With a 800g boule, I generally let it rest in a banneton for 15-30 minutes after shaping before refrigerating. Then, I let it warm at room temperature for 90-120 minutes before baking. The only time my loaves get over-proofed is when I am baking two oven-loads, and the second has to wait too long at room temperature, because I made an error in timing when to take them out of the fridge.
Hope this helps.
David
Thanks David.
I think I am going to go back to the method of which you described in your first paragraph and retard the loaves in their baskets and also ensuring the dough has a stronger gluten development.
I agree that the large air pocket was probably a shaping issue. I was not very experienced at shaping back when I was baking with this method to begin with.
Would you say that the 20 - 60 minute autolyse is plenty or should i continue with my chilled overnight autolyse?
Is there such a place for a slow retarded bulk fermentation I have been currently using? I saw in your amazing looking san joaquin baguettes you use an overnight retarded bulk ferment. Is there a rule to follow I. E. Retarding before shaping or after?
Really appreciate all your advice.
Thanks, J
Autolyse was originally described by Professor Raymond Calvel as a way of achieving good gluten development without intensive mixing when making baguettes. He prescribed 20-60 minutes. That is enough to evenly hydrate the flour and begin gluten formation. Those who do much longer autolyses claim they improve the flavor. I am agnostic on the subject.
When I took the Artisan II (sourdough baking) workshop at the San Francisco Baking Institute, the instructor, Frank Sally, said that cold retardation in bulk is used for high-hydration doughs. Cold retardation of formed loaves is used for low-hydration loaves. He did not give the rationale for this. He did not specify the dividing line between "high" and "low" hydration levels. In my mind, there is a gray area at 72-78% hydration where you could go either way. If I were making the bread you describe, frankly, I would retard it as formed loaves. If you wanted to retard it in bulk, I wouldn't argue. In fact, it is possible to do both! There are some other variations on this theme, but that's enough too much information, I think.
Let us know how your next trial turns out. We can all learn together.
David
Thanks David. That's interesting information regarding the high and low hydration and retarding methods.
Really appreciate all your help on this. Will let you guys know how I get on.
Many thanks,
J
David, I'm reading where preferment should be about 20% to no more than 40% depending on the recipe and how long you let it go.
Do you think he has too much starter or do I need more study? :)
Murph
The way to think about the quantity of pre-ferment is the percentage of the total FLOUR that is prefermented. His total flour is 2740g (flour in starter + added flours). His prefermented flour is 540 gms (half the wt. of a 100% hydration starter). So, 19.7% of his flour is prefermented. That is well within the customary range.
David
Thanks, David. I'm glad I piped up because I just learned something.
Murph
Glad I came across this discussion, I have exactly the same problem, especially when making my sourdough onion rye (it could have been the same picture). Apart from shaping issues, the gummy texture has been plaguing me for the last year or so, my loaves never did this before. Now I'm thinking that I'm have been doing the bulk cold ferment for a 62% - 65% hydration dough (because, you know, thats what the cool kids are doing) and that my be what the issue is (or partially). Next time, I will try to just ferment at room temp and bake and hopefully it will not be subject to "proteolysis with over-fermentation". Any easy way of judging if over-fermentation has happened?