Levain building and ripeness for sour instead of leavening?
When we are building our levains we are told to use them when they have doubled in size (liquid) or when they have domed (stiff). When we continually feed and build our levains aren't we selecting for yeast (rise) over bacteria (flavor) by doing this?
In my head it doesn't make sense (even though I do it) to use the levain as stated above. Why is it detrimental to allow the levain to become more acidic and bacteria balanced before using it in the final dough? Since the yeast grow faster than the lacto-bacteria and since we are adding more flour and water to negate the low pH of the levain, won't the yeast repopulate albeit maybe slower? I see so many threads about getting more sour out of our sourdough, yet I haven't seen anyone comment on how levain builds effect the sour.
I've read quite a bit about sourdough; some very technical stuff that boggles the mind. All in all there are no absolutes when it comes to sourdough. Many ways to do it and many different results. In the end it's what works for you. It's like life; some decisions work out others don't, some information works some doesn't.
Jim
I think there must be some general principles about encouraging the lactobacillus. There is a lot of voodoo written about it, but I have drawn the conclusions that retardation seems good for "souring" and that the retardation is best accomplished at the levain development stage.
I can't get a handle on how to treat the starter itself. Does it get more lactobacillus ticking along at room temperature, or does refrigerating the starter favor yeast over bacillus? Does a starter generate more or stronger lactobacillus over time, or does each refreshment start a new "race" between yeast and bacillus? I've read Debra Wink's great posts on starters, but they are a bit more micro in emphasis and I'm searching for macro priciples.
Hopefully, there are some reasoned answers out there. For example, take a look at David's recent sourdough experiments. I can mimic them, but I'm not sure what steps encouraged the fermentation he liked.
Greg
really? new to me... Like to know where you picked that up... Maybe when first growing a starter?
Doubling is a crude sign for enough activity for a simple feeding of 1:1 (equal weights of starter:flour) but I often build a levain with larger amounts of flour 1:5 to 1:10 at 23°C to 27°C. The starter culture (levain) will often hit double and then rise triple and keep going. If you have ever let your starter peak, you will learn more about the starter and what it is truly capable of accomplishing with various flours. You will also notice aroma and flavour changes. You can echo many of these same changes by carefully watching your bread dough. Just don't let the dough ferment as long as the levain or it becomes one, a big one.
I let my rye starters peak. I catch wheat starters short of peaking. "Doubling" is just into the start of the fermentation for most flours. (Doubling is also relative in respect to the hydration, amount of flour, and type of flour, and gluten amount etc.) Most of my favorite aromas come well into the fermentation, long after "doubling."
Refrigeration will slow down yeast and this in turn favors the bacteria. Over a period of time the starter can get lopsided toward non-yeasts. That is why it is important to let the starter fully peak (use up most of the food) before reducing and feeding again and giving it a little warm time before refrigerating again. Warm time and food boost the yeast, they like it warm and they like a food supply. Bacteria are not so picky.
I've never experienced refrigeration boosting yeast, just delaying or slowing the activity. The longer a starter culture (also a storage starter) sits in the refrigerator, the more the yeast reduce in number. That is why it takes several refreshments to bring the yeast rising power back into a starter that has been sitting a while in the fridge. The yeast will bud and replace themselves but at a much slower rate and as long as the pH is high enough to keep them from stopping completely (and pH low enough for them to protect themselves from invasion) they are safely stored in the refrigerator. With time, the pH in the culture will drop and become more sour due to yeast & bacterial activity. When too sour, yeast will stop. They stop producing gas and save their energy to preserve themselves and eventually go dormant. Those that are sensitive to slight drops in pH preserve themselves sooner. Once they have gone into this preservation state, they wait until conditions in the culture have changed enough to come back to activity. In nature, yeast survive a long winter this way. It takes them days to come out of this dormant state under ideal conditions of warmth, moisture and food and proper pH.
Always feeding the starter culture (either for maintaining it or building for a recipe) at the beginning of fermentation when the yeast gasses make the levain double in size, can also breed yeast varieties that are very sensitive to pH changes, so that when acid starts to build in the dough, the rising power fails as yeast receive a signal to go dormant.
Letting the culture mature to peaking, lets the acid levels build in the culture. By doing this you select the yeasts that grow in the culture that are not so sensitive to slight changes. This encourages a more durable starter/levain culture so that when you want to extend fermentation for flavour, and the acid increases in the dough (pH drops) you still have the lifting power of active gas producing yeast.
As the ferment progresses in the dough, it is a race against time, the dough will eventually be worn down by yeast and bacteria to the point where a loaf of bread is no longer an outcome and the whole batch turns into a peaked or overproofed starter. So it is important to know not to ferment too long trying to reach ultimate fermenting flavour. Flours will vary and those with higher ash content buffer the immediate build up of acid in the dough delaying yeast from detecting it. This gives a long window of working with the dough for long fermentations.
I agree with Mini Oven 100%. Yet it would be nice to know which strains and proportions of yeast and bacteria our storage starters have. The lab geeks can determine many but not all of them and yet how they effect flavor is not clear. Use Mini Ovens' advice and through trial and error find the technique/ingredient mixture, that works for you and your unique starter.
Jim
You have saved me much work trying to figure this out in my head by myself. I think what you say makes sense and follows my limited experience. Now, if you know about yeast water, they are strange beasts, that would be helpful too :-)
Thank you for your reply!
I don't know how but in my mind I understood doubling of the starter as being 'ripe'. Now you suggest that the 'peak' (same thing as ripe correct?) is not when it doubles but far after. So this brings me to the question of how do you know when your starter peaks? What exactly is the peak? Is that when the starter starts falling down from its heighest point? I am also feeding 1:10 ratios (hydration dependent on whether or not I'm building a stiff or liquid levain).
Thanks again!
Got this recipe, via my sister Helen, from Sourdough home... Buttery sourdough buns.... they are totally awesome... did my preferment yesterday when I fed... Shirley, Goodness and Mercy... then used 1/2 cup of the starter for these GREAT rolls... check em out!!! I did not use the paprika to mark the rolling pattern...
Hi Mini--it's me again--your so lucky! I have been practicing for several weeks now and I am at a place where I leave my basic starter on the counter and feed about 2 times a week. I also understand that the levain is built from my basic starter prior to using it (the levain) to raise the dough in a complete recipe! Yeah! Ok, I got this far now for the big question--rhythm--(no, I am way past THAT stage!). I am seeking to find my own time schedule. FYI I have been leaving my basic starter on the counter in the kitchen about 69 degrees room temp.Please clarify for me the following:
1. Do I take a part of my starter to build the levain at a time when the starter itself is in perfect bubble (about 8 hours after feeding)? Or,
2. Does it not make any difference in what condition the basic starter is when I build the levain?
3. If my usual day begins in the kitchen about 10:00AM on what day should I feed the starter prior to building a levain?
4. On what day should I build the levain? I can see that my levain looks really active also at about 8 hours. That means if I fed it at 10:00AM I would be making the dough at 6:00PM. If, I do the first rise in a bucket say for about 3 hours, can I put the bucket in the refrigerator overnight. That would mean it go on the counter at 10:00AM in the morning--then what? when?
Thanks again,