December 29, 2024 - 12:01pm
Pannetone 2nd dough
Festive question.
Pannetone.
Despite using a very active starter and getting a great 1st dough rise, my 2nd dough rise (27 deg. C) is taking ages (12 hours plus). The end result is fine but its making for a very long process.
Anyone else found the 2nd rise rather slow?
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was your pasta madre very lactic?
can you tell from the pm appearance and smell?
very fine alveoli is usually a sign of very lactic vs acetic and will cause less gas generation compared to acetic.
Thanks for the comment.
It was more on the lactic side, I'd say, from the smell, so maybe that's it.
It was fine at first dough stage but I leave that overnight anyway. So I might not have noticed slow activity.
Any suggestion on how to improve PM prep? I'm just making a dryish (70%) starter from my regular white sourdough starter and giving it 3 feeds before use.
using a 70% hydration starter would be somewhat non traditional for panettone afaik
and i believe lactic acid bacteria are more likely to monopolize such high hydration starter/pasta madre
typical hydration would be 40-50% max
maintaining a pasta madre starter is somewhat of a moving target and requires a lot of responsibility and sensory observation to keep it in balance of lactic vs acetic bacteria.
Right, I'm going to build new PM at 45%
Thanks
I've read of this problem a number of times but I can't say it's something I have observed myself. It's odd for sure but I think it might be due to a deficiency in yeast in the starter meaning the initial rise was more bacterial than yeasted such that by the time the second dough is mixed and the sugar concentration is further elevated, the bacteria are not doing much and the yeast population is not sufficient enough to leaven it in good time.
And/or the dough has softened too much - softer doughs take longer to gain enough strength to leaven upwards. This is the reason for using a stiff starter as it imparts more strength than a liquid one.
I second mwilson's opinion. Remote diagnostics is not easy, but this would be also my first guess.
OK I'm going to rebuild PM st 45% and encourage yeast capture. Thanks.
I'm going to rebuild PM st 45% and encourage yeast capture. Thanks.
Thanks to all commenters - so helpful.
I shall report back after more baking. Neighbours seem happy about the "pannetone gift guy"!
I meant the yeast and the sugar concentration. See also sueVT's comment.
While it's common to maintain and use a stiff starter for panettone, it seems that the hydration of the starter alone is not necessary a key factor. At least not according to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0R-2XzvSUo
If you haven't done so, you could analyze the sugar saturation of your dough in the 1st vs 2nd impasto. Perhaps you could shift some of the sugar to the 1st impasto, permitting the 2nd to rise a bit more quickly. Also, you can go as high as 30C on the final rise in the pans if you need to.
--Sue