Best, Affordable Panettone Flour in United States?
I've been making Panettone for a few years now, some successes, some terrible failures (see my old posts if interested). I'm FAR from a pro. I've read some threads that are so far beyond my understanding (getting into ash content of flour for instance) it made my head spin. I also lack some pro tools like a pH meter for the LM.
Having said that, I know that my flour choice in previous years (store-brand AP with vital wheat gluten added, for instance) were very likely a huge part of the failures.
I was wondering if anyone can recommend a good flour that is proven to work with Panettone, that I can get at an affordable price in the United States? I know Amazon has some options, though $30-$50 for a 5-10 pound bag of flour seems like quite a lot to me.
Any other general tips are welcome too.
Thanks!
I recommend trying bread flour specifically designed for baking, such as King Arthur Bread Flour or Bob’s Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour.
Thanks! I actually did already buy a ten pound bag of King Arthur bread flour (the standard one with 12.7% protein) but I was worried that wouldn't be good enough. I've read some people saying it's okay for the LM and 2nd impasto, but not the first.
Use any of the 00 or T45 mills as these are produced for cakes
That was partly what was confusing me. When I look at 00 flour, there seems to be a lot of variation between flour stats. I was going to get the only one in my local markets (Anna), but then read it wasn't actually very good.
I did come across this flour. Seems a bit pricey, but says it's specifically for Panettone... https://brickovenbaker.com/products/molino-pasini-panettone-flour
Anyone ever use this one?
Keep it simple. Order Caputo 00. Google lets you know where to find it.
These types of flours are specified to have a very low ash content. As a consequence, they tend to be milled very fine in texture. The type designation does not constrain the protein content, and the protein and other baking qualities can vary. If the protein content is very low then it might be a good cake flour. But many type 00 flours are made with high-protein flour for baking pizzas, as an example.
TomP
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's why I was so hesitant to just buy a flour, because I haven't yet studied the specifics of flour and what exactly I'd need. Thanks for the info!
I’m still learning to make panettone and there are many more experienced and more successful panettone bakers on the forum, but I will offer a few thoughts.
There are different views about how strong panettone flour needs to be, but I think there are qualities in addition to the amount of gluten that are also important. The way US flour is described is not very helpful for determining its suitability for panettone, as you need both strength (gluten), high extensibility (depends on type of gluten) and ability to withstand long fermentation times without breaking down (high falling number). Apparently, Italian flours have a better mix of types of gluten that they are generally more extensible. But, not just any Italian 00 flour is good—00 just refers to the grind and not to the other qualities needed (high gluten and high falling number).
Over the years, I have used KA bread flour alone, a combination of KA general purpose flour (which is unchanged stronger than most general purpose flours) and KA bread flour, and Central Milling Artisan Baker’s Craft Plus. I think I have had better results using the Central Milling flour, but my results have depended more on the qualities of my levieto madre, my ability to properly develop the gluten in the dough, and successfully managing the temperature and timing of fermentation and proofing, than on the particular flour I use.
In any event, and more to the point, this year I purchased 55 pounds (the minimum quantity required) of an Italian flour labeled specifically for use in making panettone at a very good price, and I’m excited to use it and see what kind of results I get. In another post, I have offered to sell some of it to forum members at my cost. See https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/74784/i-have-dellagiovanna-panettone-share-sf-bay-area for more details.
Although I was hoping I would have a lot of interest from local bakers (in the S.F. Bay Area) so I wouldn’t have to deal with shipping, I may still have more than I need. I think I will have 5 or 10 pounds that I could ship to you at my cost, including the actual cost of packaging and shipping using US Priority Mail. If you are interested, message me.
Good luck with your panettone baking this year!
Charlotte
Hi, thanks so much for the info. It's good to know I can get away with the King Arthur bread flour if need be, I may try a test batch with that alone to see how it goes.
Admittedly, my knowledge and understanding of the LM is limited at best. I've tried in the past to create a true LM, though I don't have a PH meter and was using subpar flour, so other than knowing it was rising, I can't say if it was otherwise suitable. This is an area I plan to try learning more about this year. Not sure if the PH meter is necessary, but I'm thinking about it.
As for the flour offer, I think I'll take you up on that as long as shipping isn't too crazy. I'll DM in a minute about that. Thanks!
I am new, and as such I am trying to familiarize myself with sourdough/fermented dough lingo. Is there a difference between Lievito Madre (LM) and pasta Madre (pm)?
I'm honestly not sure. I've used the terms interchangeably, and I *think* they are the same thing.
Different name - same thing - as are a lot of terms. Enjoy!
King Arthur does make a high gluten flour, Sir Lancelot. It has a protein content of about 14.2%. You can order a 5lb bag from their website or you can purchase a 50lb bag from a restaurant supply store. I have also ordered Italian high protein flour for pannetone. I’ve gotten both good and bad results from both flours. If by good you mean something that looks like Roy S’s (can’t spell his last name) then I’ve never achieved anything like his with either flour. I still have about 20lbs of 50lbs of that italian flour after about 2 years.
I would say that a majority of the problems I have is getting the gluten development right.
Oh, by the way, the professional panettone bakers use steams ovens. I’ve suspected this, but never read about in forums or recipes posted online.
Thanks! Yeah, I've found a couple options at this point, but now it's more about price than anything else. I'm not sure if I'm ready to plunk down money necessary to get some of these flours. I'll check out the KA website and see what their pricing is like.
Oh, no, I don't expect to get anything close to Roy's creations. Honestly, I'd just be happy to have a couple loaves actually rise through the second rise and hold their shape. I've had both successes and failures, and never really pinned down what causes the issues. I suspect a combination of the wrong flour and LM/starter problems. Maybe some technique issues too.
There's so much that goes into Panettone!
Hey, I started the panettone journey like you couple of years ago and, got to the point where if I'm going to make it, I must use the right ingredients, and the Italians have perfected those flours. I have only tried Caputo manitoba oro, Dallagiovanna and Petra, but hands down Pasini panettone flour is my fav. I know is expensive but high quality flour has a price that US flour can't offer.
I usually get them from: Molino Pasini “00” Panettone Flour 10 KG Bag – ourglobalpantry.com
Our Products - Flour - Bulk Packed Flour - Casa de Case, Inc.
Remember that above all, 80 or 90% of your panettone success will depend on your LM, so make sure it is balanced if you plan to buy an expensive flour.
Have fun!!!
JC
Thanks so much, very much appreciated. I'll look into these, and yes, I'm thinking about finally pulling the trigger on a PH meter to help me with my LM. Cheers!
I have never made panettone so please forgive me for responding here. The link below sounds like it will be of use to you (and others too). The Lesson From Experience #5 is "No, you don’t need a pH meter". The reason is that it doesn't help you distinguish between lactic and acetic states and it doesn't tell you how much acid is really in the dough or LM.
The entire post seems very sound to me, never having made or even touched a panettone. Our own Michael Wilson and his recipe, as adapted from Giorilli, are mentioned BTW.
https://newsletter.wordloaf.org/p/eight-lessons-from-my-panettone-saga
TomP
That's great, thanks so much! I've bookmarked it for later use, cheers!
Hey, I started the panettone journey like you couple of years ago and, got to the point where if I'm going to make it, I must use the right ingredients, and the Italians have perfected those flours. I have only tried Caputo manitoba oro, Dallagiovanna and Petra, but hands down Pasini panettone flour is my fav. I know is expensive but high quality flour has a price that US flour can't offer.
I usually get them from: Molino Pasini “00” Panettone Flour 10 KG Bag – ourglobalpantry.com
Our Products - Flour - Bulk Packed Flour - Casa de Case, Inc.
Remember that above all, 80 or 90% of your panettone success will depend on your LM, so make sure it is balanced if you plan to buy an expensive flour.
Have fun!!!
JC