May 18, 2008 - 12:40am
Roasted flour in bread, anyone tried?
I'd like to do some testing with roasted flour in a bread recipes. That is taking flour, laying it on a baking tray and roasting it until it darkens and becomes nutty in flavour.
Has anyone tried or know of any recipes I could try? I'm not sure what proportion would be needed to actually get good taste and I'm assuming the flour loses it's ability to develop gluten. I thought maybe using it like rye in a 'pain de campagne'.
The baker I spoke about in my blog entry makes a pain rustique using it. I have seen a couple articles mentioning it.
Jane
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I have used roasted flour in bread, however my experiences might not be of much use to you as I used low protein flour wich resulted in tight unsatisfactory crumb structure.
The taste however greatly benifited from the taste of the roasted flour wich gave the whole bread a "crusty" taste. I used roasted oatflour wich resulted in a dough that smelled awful but bread with good taste, better white flour whould probably have resulted in better crumb structure.
Not in bread, but my mum always used to bake flour, on a baking sheet in the oven, to use the thicken gravy etc...... qahtan
Interesting idea. I know that when I toast a rue (butter & flour) in a pan it develops a nice nutty flavor. Clarified butter does the same if you are careful not to burn it. I would think that either product in a small amount would lend a nice nutty after taste.
If you haven't ever clarified butter and then slowly raised the temperature, stirring and cleaning off the scum that surfaces all the while it turns a nutty brown color. Well you're missing a treat. A little trick I learned from a fellow who does fish boils with Lake Superior Whitefish. It's good with any boiled fish including Lobster or any firm fish. The nutty flavor on a bland fish is out of this world!
Sorry this isn't any way connected to bread making but I'll bet it taste great in bread as a flavoring oil. OH, OK I'll try it out!
Eric
You're giving me nutty butter smells at 7am! Ha ha!
I'll have to experiment with no idea of proportions...but that can be fun...or disappointing. I'll do small batches!
You do the butter, I'll do the flour, then tell me if it's worth it and visa versa, ok?
Jane
I'll make 2 small batches. One with a rue that has been browned and another where I will add a Tablespoon of browned clarified butter. Just a straight French dough plus the butter.
Eric
OK, I'll roast some flour, some white and some whole wheat and then do a straight dough as well.
Janedo,
So I clarified the salt free butter and continued heating it until it was quite dark in color. Then I started to heat the flour to darken it thinking I would add some of the butter and combine them into a nice street. I decided to not combine the two and rather add them later, one at a time.
Upon finishing toasting the flour I tasted it and it had a mild nutty flavor with a slight bitter after taste. The Butter was mildly buttery/nutty mellow flavored.
The amount of flour I toasted turned out to be 38 grams which represented just less than 10% of the total flour (400 G). I added 1 Tablespoon of toasted butter and 260 g water for a 65% hydration, normal salt. You know how coffee smells so full and delicious before you brew it and it never quite tastes as good brewed? I'm afraid this will turn out the same way because it smells heavenly as it is fermenting. Soon we will know!
Eric
I thought I would detail some of this since we don't have a chance to sit and enjoy the fruits of our labors.
First image is the finished Flour and Butter against a sheet of white paper for reference. The Butter is not burned although it looks like it is here. The flour is our General Mills Harvest King Bread flour. It has a creamy slightly off white color in the bag.
The Battard shaped and expanded as I would of expected without the toasted flour. I didn't feel any difference but I could smell the toasted ingredients which had a fragrant aroma. 10% toasted seems to me to be a good place to start with the flour.
The crumb is more like a sandwich loaf. It is soft and golden tan in color. I think the toasted portion of the flour contributes to the softness in addition to the butter.
There is a definite nutty after taste. I could smell it right out of the oven and it continues even now after 5 hours on the rack. It has a nice mouth feel and an unusual flavor, very pleasant. This is not French Bread by any means. The aroma of toasted grains is noticable to me. I like it the way it is but I'm hoping your tests are using a lower percentage of toasted flour. I think most of the flavor is coming from the flour and I suggest less may be better. I think a more subliminal flavor, a hint of nuttiness would be more appropriate instead of a distinctive taste.
Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing your results.
Eric
Toasted Flour & Butter
Crumb
Crust
Thank you so much! I'm assuming it is a yeast bread?
Your results are incredible and I smell roasted butter and flour. I would so love to try it.
I think garlic would be a nice addition to all this. Making baguettes and then garlic bread out of it. Or the recipe in Glezer's book for those roasted garlic bread. (I haven't even had breakfast yet, I should be thinking honey, not garlic!)
Bear with me, I'm a bit slow for some things with my busy life. But I'll get at it right away!
Jane
I happened to have some time available in the morning yesterday so I jumped right on the toasting experiment.
Yesterday's loaf was reportedly very good as toast this morning also. Building on the overall experience of a toasted wheat flavor, roasted garlic and a maybe a little rosemary might be interesting. The garlic could be infused into the butter if you didn't want the chunks of garlic.
My personal preference with savory breads is not to over power them. I tend to like a subtle experience in these things. "Less is more" so to speak.
Eric
My house smells like roasted flour! The trick is when to stop the roasting. I literally was kneeling in front of the oven and turning every few minutes. I was scared of getting a bitter, over-roasted taste. But I didn't want to under roast. I followed the advice of a french blogger and did it at 160°C for 20 min but didn't like the results. So, I went to the broiler and did it very very carefully.
I am doing a rustic style loaf. It's rising. The color is interesting. It will be baked in a few hours.
Until then....
reflections on roasted garlic, rosemary, butter and flour
Jane
Interestingly, Mini-Oven clued me in to roasting seeds in the oven on paper for 10 minutes at 350F. I was having trouble getting it right in a stove top pan. The flour however I have better luck with in a heavy sauce pan stirring continuously with a flat wood spatula. I rotate the flour constantly so I get a good idea of how browned it is becoming over all. I use a medium flame and watch it closely as it finishes fast.
Eric
Eric, I'm with you on the flour in the frying pan. Also do it with bread crumbs (and a good amount of butter/sunflower margarine. And that's very practical when making fruit filled dumplings... they get rolled into this fantastic mixture of toasted crumbs and butter just after boiling. This thread is driving me mad! Yearning for Apricot dumplings! Wachau here I come!
The idea of roasting herbs is also a tempting one.
Mini O
Ok, here we go!
I did a simple rustic bread on a yeast biga. I ended up puttng a quarter of the flour as toasted/roasted, not counting the biga.
The crumb is NOT very airy at all, but it's nice and soft, chewy. It's the smell and TASTE that is really incredible! My daughter said "Trop bon!" (too good!) I used T110 as the toasted flour, not the white. I toasted two types of flour.
So, I'd say that the experiments were definitely worth it. The bread is unique.
Thanks so much for doing your Eric. I'm going to try a country style loaf like you and try with garlic and herbs. I'll have to think about it. I still have a lot of flour left.
So, Mini O, what are those fruit filled dumplings you're talking about????
Jane
I've been loving this thread about toasting flours; I'm going to have to try this, though maybe not until next week...
I'm with you, Jane; Mini O, you must explain apricot dumplings! They sound too good.
edh
That looks very nice Jane. I think you got a good sandwich crumb. The roasting does mellow out the gluten some and eliminates the crunchiness don't you think?
Remind me what our equivalent is to T-110 flour? I'm going to try again with a lower percentage of roasted flour. Mini's suggestion of corn meal sounds interesting.
Eric
I think it's your high extraction. I France we call it "bis" so when you here about a "pain bis" it's either half white and half whole wheat or it's made with T110 which is in between T55 (white) and T150 (ww).
Show you results when you do them, ok?
Jane
Hi, Jane:
Can you get chestnut flour there? I know you can get chestnuts (at least east of you on the other side of the Rhone one can) but is the flour available where you are? I may try to get my daughter to send me some chestnut flour from Grasse. I don't think bringing it on a plane is a wise idea -- I can hear the Drug Enforcement people panicing now! I have a recipe that uses it, and think it might be fun to try it.
And -- have you ever been to the water-powered mill near Cantaloube known as "the mill on the Cougnegat"? We visited it several years ago. Don't know how far that is from you, of course, but it's in the right general area, more or less.
Mary
Hi Mary,
Yes I can buy chestnut flour easily at the organic store. I always have some in my kitchen. It makes nice cookies and cakes. I think it costs about 6 euros for 500g, so pretty expensive but since it is ground chestnuts, one can understand the price!
We could do an exchange if you'd like. I send you the flour and you send me a surprise!
Jane
Thanks, Jane -- I may take you up on that, if I can't persuade my daughter to send me some, or if she can't find it in the Grasse area.
She and I discussed her bringing you a care package (bringing it into France and mailing it to you from Grasse) when she was home, but we decided that the customs people would decide it was a "suspicious white powder" and give her all sorts of problems, which, having been traveling for 3 weeks, she didn't want to face.
But we will work something out, I'm sure.
Mary
Yes, the white powder is a real problem!
Tell her to go to the "biocoop", she'll find it there, no problem.
But let me know. BTW, unless she is flying into de Gaulle the advantage is that French customs in airports like Toulouse, etc aren't very picky, especially at certain hours.
Jane
yesterday and wondering .... Started with an idea reading Hamelman's Hazelnut and Fig Bread with Fennel Seeds and Rosemary (BREAD, p247).
I've added roasted flour to recipes, but kept the levels low. After it is roasted, it acts like low-gluten flour.
I've had roasted buckwheat flour in China to bake with but never got a mixture I liked.
I haven't tried roasted corn flour, but it might be just the improvement I've been looking for in cornbread!
Mini O
Mini you might be on to something with the roasted corn meal. The improvement in flavor is dramatic when you roast the ears. It's even better just a little burned.
What I really want to see however is the apricot dumpling in a fresh thread.
Eric
for Apricot Dumplings (aka, Marillenknödel) posted but haven't seen a key ingredient in the recipes... an egg. Funny, but the blog is in the making, not to fret, been busy playing nurse & carpenter of late.
All this contact with my nephew has improved his English marks in school! Months ago, I told him point blank I didn't like the way he spoke English and that he would have to answer me in complete sentences. Man o' man am I tough! ...but I have softened up a bit and we get along great! Oops, off track, but I see a potential sd baker here, he's got lots of little experiments going on. Sound familiar?
Mini O
CORN: So I started toasting some fine (not flour) ground corn, polenta, in a fry pan. After about 5 minutes decided to add some corn oil for better heat distribution. We will see what comes out. While it was toasting (or am I frying it now), I was thinking about the effect of already popped corn being ground and used in bread as mentioned on another thread. I think the proportions of corn to wheat would be similar. Toasting the ground popping corn might also be similar, however, I predict the toasting time to be shorter due to the sweetness of the corn -- the sugar browning faster. Which leads me to wonder about caramelizing a little sugar with this corn after it starts to brown.
Plain toasted polenta tastes like corn chips without any salt.
MILLET: While the pan was still hot, I also toasted some whole golden millet (that had been rinsed well under running hot water and drained) to see what it does. I had read about it once on TFL and must add that it was fun to watch it toast, first it dries the grain out nicely and when it gets hot enough, pops gently around in place, like stiring styrofoam particles.
Tastes: It certainly makes for a lighter "crunch" when biting, albeit bitter by itself.
Mini O
Mini, are you going to make some bread with all that? Interesting you say that the millet is bitter. I think that can be the risk for grains when toasted/roasted and since we aren't doing scientific experiments maybe there are temperatures to go by.
I just cooked some corn to try Reinharts corn bread. I'll do it normally to see if I succeed and then maybe try with some roasted flour!
I have a friend who is in Corsica this weekend. Their specialty baking is with chestnut flour so I'm hoping she brings me some back. I can buy it and have some, but maybe over there it's even BETTER!
Jane
Well that little roasted corn went on a journey. Weighed up at 75g and sat there looking at me. I decided to make a mini loaf and bofore I slept on the idea, I poured 80g (aiming at 75g...oops) of very hot water over the corn and let it soak. In the morning the water was gone.
Mini's little corn loaf:
- 75g toasted corn meal
- 75g very hot water
- soak
- 150g water temperate
- 5g yeast (1 tsp)
- 25g brown sugar (1/8 c)
- 25g butter unsalted (1/8 c)
- 7.5ml salt (1 1/2 tsp)
- 200g Bread wheat flour (#700 -Austria)
- sit 30 minutes
- knead, let rise, fold, etc., whatever
- bake 220°c 25 min. or until done. I used a pre-heated stainless bowl inverted on a pre-heated heavy pizza pan for first 12 minutes in a pre-heated oven.
Very crunchy and nice corn flavour. Much like corn dogs! Next time those frankfurters get a wrapping! Jane, your little ones ever eat corn dogs! No deep frying here!I am tempted to make this flatter like a focaccia with lots of fresh herbs. And let it bake a little longer to nice roasty brown.
Mini O
Nope! But the corn bread is being made this afternoon ( I forgot to soak the polenta yesterday evening, so I'm doing it now).
The problem is that I am making four stuffed rustic bread, one Susan's bread and the corn bread. I think I'll be calling friends to give some away.
I've noted your recipe, thanks. You should adds pics!
Jane
a picture?
corn bread: Soft moist crumb As you can see we have a bright sunny day ...that's my corn dog, Dolly.
I am tempted to make this flatter like a focaccia with lots of fresh herbs. And let it bake a little longer to nice roasty brown. Ye 'ol bacon drippings are missing but would make a tasty BLT sandwhich.
Black pepper would also be worth trying in the dough.
Mini O
Cute dog! Nice bread. I'm a visual person, especially for things I've never seen before. It give me a better idea of what I'm aiming for. Like everyone I guess. So thanks. That would make a tasty BLT indeed.
My stuffed sourdough ciabattas are baking as we speak/write. I stuffed one with spring oignons and cheese, one with black olives and sun dried tomatoes and one with pesto.... hmmm, I wonder what I did with the fourth one! I can't remember. Just as I was starting to prepare them, the school called to say my son missed the bus. Had to drive all the way there to get him (yes, school on Saturday!)Oh well, the fourth will be a surprise.
Jane
is just fantastic stuff! I'm putting 10g to 400g flour and just that tiny amount does so much!
I mentioned it in one of Eric's threads...it has 40% barley,15% brown rice, 12% corn, 8% wheat, 3% job's tears (barley), 2% millet, 1% sesame seed, and a few % of stuff I have yet to identify.
One loaf just came out of the oven with roasted barley flour 10g to 400g wheat flour. I do notice the crust browns faster and I have to turn the oven down from 220°c to 200°c after the first 10 minutes to finish baking the loaf.
The bread baking aroma goes over the top! Before parchment paper, I used to liberally dust my dry baking sheet with flour. Then that roasted flour (about a heaping tablespoon) would go into the next batch of bread. I had stopped that little detail when I started using parchment. But it's enough to send my memory back into time....
Mini O
Mini O,
I saw the post where you talked about it a while back. Sounds very interesting! How long do you think it keeps? And where? Just in a tupperware or in the fridge? I could make some blended roasted flour. We have two varieties of five flour blends, one with traditional flours and one with some non gluten flours. I could try both. I'll compare with your list and then give it a try. Thanks for sharing your experiments!
Jane
storage. Right now it's just in an air tight container. You could easily roast a few tablespoons by just putting a little flour on foil while loaves are baking. I don't know shelf life but easily made anytime. I especially like the idea of roasting blends of flours and trying some non-gluten roast in gluten free bread.
I'm looking around to really see if roasting destroys gluten. Not too sure about that one....
Mini O
Jolly,
Thanks for your input. I do have a dehydrater that I haven't really used much yet. But I don't have a ton of time, so even the idea of adding even more steps to bread making, preparing the grains, then roasted, makes my head spin. But as soon as I get some free time, I'll definitely do some experimenting. I don't know if I said it above (this topic dates a bit) but I made some simple sablés cookies with roasted flour and they were excellent! They would be lovely with roasted seeds and maybe some currants (not roasted :-)). Hmmm, that's a good idea!
Jane
with my bitter millet. I take it I should also rinse thoroghly after soaking to remove the salt.
Mini O
Maybe that roasted millet was past it's prime. I have a new batch of millet and will soak it first. What I would like to do is soak it and sprout it. Much in the same way as BROWN RICE in this article. GERMINATED MILLET
Interesting that you mention soaking in lemon or lime juice or vinegar as if to sour the grain....that makes bells go off in my head. Is it me or does it just seems natural for us humans to want to acify our grain to improve upon it?
Mini O
Mini,
Maybe it's not the sour taste people look for but rather the acidity of the lemon that acts like an enzyme to loosen up the outer shell.
Just a thought.
Jane
Just as Jolly says. That's what I've read. Soaking, letting it germinate from 24 to 36 hours sweetens it. (Under Chinese medicine preparation)
In another article I was reading how all these improvements are applied to increase value of baby food. Germination also has a tendancy to break down the viscosity of the mixture, so spoon for spoon, more grain can be consumed (as opposed to adding more water to reach eating consistancy.) Dealing with the enzymes that have been released through germination is also a concern. "Will my loaf go flat?" (like it contained too much malt)
Maybe the acid plays a role to neutralize the enzymes. And maybe this activity should be under a different topic like malt. (pH & malt) Roasting this malted grain would stop the enzyme action. I have no idea if roasting changes the food value. Wish I knew. This stuff must be lying in cereal manufacturer's archives just waiting to be rediscovered.
Mini O
Not sure what to think....in your excitement you wrote:
"...the lemon neutralizes the acid in the millet."
Lemon juice is acid. If there is acid in the millet, it would make it more acidic.
Baking powder and baking soda also will react to anything acidic, like sourdough starter or yogurt, sour cream, lemon or orange juice.
Mini O