Its all in the technique...
Or so I have heard/been told.
So, after reading many of the posts on this site, I have elected to try something different. Probably someone here has already done this but it is I who must stumble, fall, and get back up.
I agree wholeheartedly that sourdough is about the bread and not so much about how sour it is. However, I am with the group that likes to have sour dough in their sourdough. I have already produced some fine bread and some not so fine bread (like forgetting to add salt... YUK!). I have had good crumb and not so good crumb; good crust, burnt crust, and I-am-not-sure-what-to-call-it crust. Now it is time to get me some sour.
So last Sunday, I fed my starter. Kept it in my proofing box at 25C (77F) for 4.5 hours and it not only doubled but possibly quad drupled. Wednesday evening when I got home from a terrible round of golf, I took some of that started and made a preferment. It sat in my proofing box at 25C for about 10 hours. Then in the fridge it went. This evening when I got home, I put the preferment in my proofing box set to 29C (85F) and let it warm up for 4 hours. Then to the kitchen it came in all it's glory.
I pre-measured all my ingredients in small containers, poured the preferment into the mixing bowl, added the rye, white bread flower, oil, and started mixing. I added water as I was mixing to get the consistency I wanted to achieve. Before I would just add all the water and sometimes the dough was way too sticky for any use. I let the mix sit for 20 minutes then added the salt. I kneaded for an additional 3 minutes and then added just a wee bit more water because the dough felt too dry.
Then out of the mixing bowl and onto my table where it was still a little sticky, but after kneading and rolling around, it firmed up. I don't understand that but that is for another time. Lightly oiled a container and put the ball of dough and swirled it around to cover it with oil. Seal the container and into the proofing box at 29C (85F) for the next 12 to 20 hours. Probably about 15 hours.
What is different that my routine? I preferment on Friday evening. Saturday morning I mix, rise, punch down, rise, then bake. Normally I get a really chewy crumb with a crispy crust. Just the way I like it. But missing is a tangy taste. I will use my routine from time to time just because I like this bread. But for now, I am trying different techniques to see if I can develop a bread that bites back.
So, when you turn on your oven to make bread, does the bread return the favor?
So, you haven't baked it, yet?
I have tried numerous "recipes" and they never seem to work, but when I take the "technique" and adapt it and while I'm making the dough, do as you did, that is LOOK at the dough and add as needed, the results are always way better. Or worse, if I forget the salt, which I did in a batch last week. That happens sometimes when I add the salt after the first autolyse because silly me I try to take care of the house, the kids, etc WHILE I'm making bread.
I'm an avid fan of "winging" it because being in Europe I know so many elderly people that always cooked and baked using their senses and not a measuring cup. Their recipes are always a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Once you know what you're looking for, then you can improvise. I made Mike Avery's ciabatta once following the recipe to see what it should all be like and it worked well after adding 20-30 ml of water. The next day I improvised to see if it would work with no measuring... it did. Now today I'm using the same technique to make a rosemary honey "italian style" bread thing. It should work just fine.
As Floydm stated yesterday to the person looking for the recipes, it's the technique that counts! Everyone uses different flour, has a different starter, different temp, different AIR and all of that enters into the bread. Who wants a standard loaf anyway?
Can't wait to hear how yours turned out!
Jane
This morning I checked on my progress and the dough had pushed itself out of the container. So I gently degassed by moving it around in the container and back into the box it went. I'll give it at least two more hours. If it rises again before then, I pull it out, form it, slash it, then throw it in the over. I don't what it to exhaust itself and not rise anymore.
Have a pleasant French evening and weekend.
So here is what I ended up with, beside bad English. m(._.)m
The loaf collapsed as soon as it entered the oven. While sitting on the peel, it was a good 4.5" in height. End results are about 6.5" dia and 2.25" height. Taste is much better than before though. I am not sure if it is too much salt or developed taste from the 5 day process.
Loaf
Crumb
Over all, the crust is very crunchy and the crumb is chewy. So I like the fact that I am consistent with this. But I am guessing the dough was too wet when it went in to the oven. Per some instructions I read, the dough came out of the container very gently, slashed, then into the oven it went. Might go back to my old routine but stick to the three day after feed to make.
c'est la vie, n'est-ce pas?
Hi, Brian.
Welcome to TFL and to sourdough baking! If I understand how you made your bread, I doubt the problem was over-hydration. I am struck with what I understand to be your very long fermentation before forming your loaf. 12-15 hours at 85F?
Usually, this step takes 3-6 hours at 70-76F. If I understand your description correctly, your dough would have been way over-fermented. The yeast would have depleted the available nutrients, and the gluten would have started to degrade. I suspect this, rather than over-hydration, accounts for the way the loaf misbehaved. Now, you may have also over-proofed the loaf, as Jane suggested, which would compound your problem.
The bulk fermentation (the rising before you divide the dough and form your loaves) should aim for a volume increase of 1.5 to 2 times, no more.
Also, while the warmer temperature (85F) is good for a starter you are just getting going, a longer fermentation at a lower temperature usually results in a nice flavor in the bread.
I hope this helps.
David
Well David, all I can say is I sure did SOMETHING wrong. And now that I have had time to reflect, I think the total process of everything was to be 12 ~ 20 hours, not the FIVE days it turned out to be. So next weekend I will try again.
Hi, Brian.
Well, we've all been there. You will eventually evolve a rhythm to your sourdough baking that works with your schedule and makes wonderful bread reliably, most of the time. But I've found that, anytime I make a new recipe, there are still adjustments I want to make the next time.
Today, I made a particular bread for the first time, and, as is my habit, followed the recipe pretty closely. I didn't take the ambient temperature, which was high, into account, and ended up over-proofing the bread so it stuck to the couche, collapsed when I transferred it to the peel and was next to impossible to score. It did have fair (not really good) oven spring, but it did taste wonderful. It didn't look much like the photo in the book. Pretty ugly, actually. Next time ...
Looking forward to hearing about your progress next weekend!
David
Isn't it just over fermented? Five days... that's pretty crazy! But I don't even like three day bread making! :-)
Experimenting is loads of fun... but a bummer when it doesn't work... especially after FIVE days.
My experiment was wonderful if I may say so myself! The result was even better than I expected. (I won't tell you about all my experiments that didn't work, ok? ;-))
Jane