My second effort
This is my second effort at sourdough. A few days ago you all encouraged me to "bake with it", so I did. Now I'm back, with more questions, and more results. First though, a short story of this bread.
I created this as what I thought was a 64% hydration dough, with a 100% hydration starter, but I think my scale is not working perfectly because this dough was wet! It was a challenge to get it ready to ferment, and it was impossible to shape any more than just to pull it around some. I used the french fold on the young, undeveloped dough, and did 3 stretch-and-folds at 1 hour intervals during fermentation. It was still too wet to do any serious forming of the loaves.
Here is a shot of the loaves after proofing, not long before I put them into the oven.
I measured out my ingredients, and did two expansions of my starter before making up my dough. When I made up my dough a I let it autolyse for 30 minutes, then added the salt and levain. It was stickey right from there, and I felt like I should have added more flour, but decided to stick to the batch requirements this time. Mistake number 1?
I tried my best to be real patient with this dough. Still trying to get used to the whole sourdough thing. After making up the dough I set it to ferment for 3 hours. When that completed I "formed" the loaves, and retarded them overnight in their "couches", in the fridge (42F). Had to get some sleep.
This morning, I put them on the counter (room temp avg 75F) for 3.5 hours while we went to town on some errands (yes, it takes that long). Then I preheated the oven, with two shelves lined with unglazed quarry tiles, to 450F. (Mistake #2?) As soon as the oven was saturated I put the loaves in on parchment and sprayed twice for steam. Needed more, but my spray bottle broke. After 15 minutes I swapped shelves on the loaves and turned the temperature down to 425F. After 20 more minutes I swapped ends and shelves, and turned the temp down to 400F because I thought things were going a bit fast. (Mistake #3?) Another 10 minutes and I "thumped them," to see of they were done. They were ready. After cooling 20 minutes (I could not wait any longer! I just couldn't!) I cut into one, and here we go...
and the crumb shot:
We could not help but eat some (half a loaf or so!) and the taste is wonderful. The crust is crispy but leathery, and the crumb is chewy with a "creamy" bite to it. The flavor is a credit to my young starter and I really hope it does not change too much as it matures because I really like the flavors it produces.
So, there are the story and the results. Now, I have some questions: Is there such a thing as too wet (and how wet is that)? The crust on this dough is quite crisp, but not too thick. Is that because of the hydration, the lack of adequate steam, or both? Obviously, my starter is vigorous enough, but how does this crumb measure up for a "standard" sourdough white french loaf? Please keep in mind: I'm not fishing for compliments. I want to get better at this!
Thanks, in advance, to all for your support!
OldWoodenSpoon
Getting going with sourdough is often an interesting learning process. Especially if your scale is broken or inaccurate! You survived your this round quite nicely and it seems you overcame several challenges along the way.
I think the crumb looks fine. With experience you may (or may not) aspire to crumb more like David Synders. Or you may prefer what you got.
You got a very thick crust. Did you spray the loaves or spray the oven? You might want to play with some of the steaming techniques David is using with two pans, ice in one about 5 minutes before loading, and a cast iron skillet with lava rocks that is loaded with a cup of boiling water when the bread is put in. (Note: David has other, newer variations as well).
I don't think you were overly wet, more that you don't have much experience with wet doughs. You survived this time. With experience wet dough will get easier!
Good Luck!
Jay
Thanks for the critique, and the kind words, Jay. I really do think the scale (or the scale operator!) malfunctioned. I just made the same dough again this afternoon, and got very different results, so far. It is down for fermentation now. It will get the same stretch and folds as the earlier batch, and it will be interesting to see how differently this dough develops.
I worked harder at the hand kneading this time, even though the dough was very wet and sticky again. I was rewarded by that amazing transition from a shaggy, sticky mass to a silky, smooth dough ball! Much better this time I think. Now, if I just didn't over knead it.
I also appreciate the observation about the crust being thick. After you pointed it out I went back to what is left of the last loaf and looked at it again more critically. I'm inclined to agree with you, but then I like thick crusted breads. The reminder about David Snyder's work on steam is timely. I had read it, but like so many things, it went in, picked up speed, and went back out. I will try the bread pan and ice cubes this bake, and work my way up to lava rocks as I get the necessary things together. Any consistent steam will improve my results I'm sure.
Thanks again for your contribution to my sourdough journey!
OldWoodenSpoon
Ack...
I didn't mean to imply the crust was too thick - just an observation it was thick. I like thicker crust, too. It may have to do with your long baking period. I also agree with David - I prefer darker crust so I would bake hotter/shorter but that's a personal call. (I bake my bread pretty hard - about 45 minutes at 435 to an internal temp of around 209 oF). One teacher I know suggests bread should have three shades of color. A middle tone for the bulk of the loaf, a darker color for the ears (or thin part from) the slash, and a lighter color for the slash (or at least the rip). It makes for pretty loaves.
Don't sweat overkneading by hand. It is virtually impossible - especially with wetter doughs.
Bake On!
Jay
Hi, OldWoodenSpoon.
I think your loaves look great! Nice crust and crumb. They tasted good. Obviously, any "mistakes" were consequential but not seriously detrimental.
My impression from your "play by play" is that you lack the confidence that comes with experience. That's only natural. My point is that, although the dough seemed problematic subjectively, it couldn't have been too bad or you wouldn't have achieved such a nice result.
My suggestion would be to choose a tried and true formula from a reliable bread book or one of the formulas lots of TFL'ers have had success with and make it a few (5-10) times until you feel you "know" it. I'd suggest the Vermont Sourdough (or SusanFNP's variation, The Norwich Sourdough). One of Susan from San Diego's sourdoughs or my San Joaquin Soudough would also be reasonable choices.
Some specific observations about the bread you just made:
1. If I understand your procedure, this kind of dough should start out sticky but gain a lot of coherence during bulk fermentation and folding. After each fold, it should be less sticky and hold together better than after the one before.
2. Your description of how you struggled with shaping suggests you were not handling the dough lightly enough. Dust your hands with flour before handling and whenever the dough feels sticky. Handle it with light, rapid moves - no prolonged heavy pressure. Have a clear visual image in your mind before each move so there is less hesitancy when you execute it.
3. You seemed fearful of getting too dark a crust. A darker crust is more flavorful. You progressively lowered the oven temperature. This created a thicker, lighter-colored crust. It took 45 minutes to bake those loaves, if my reading is correct. Assuming they were about 1-1.5 pound loaves, I would expect them to bake in 30 minutes or so. I would probably bake them at 440-460F to get the crust I like. If you like the lighter, thicker crust, keep baking the way you did it.
4. I'd not discourage you from experimenting with different steaming approaches. (That would be the height of hypocrisy!) However, looking at your crust and how your cuts opened up, you did something right this time.
You're off to a great start!
David
I'm honored, David, and thanks for sharing your considerable knowldge and experience with me. Your compliments carry high value indeed.
You have read my notes correctly in every respect regards time and temperature, and procedure. You are right: I have a great deal to learn, especially about handling wet dough properly. I appreciate the advice, and I will continue to study and do my "homework" in this area. You may have seen my more recent post above that my later effort on this same recipe yielded better (in terms of being more manageable) results in the dough. I'll find out about the bake today.
I especially appreciate the comments about time and temperature. I have naively been "winging it" somewhat in that regard, trying to use what I have learned over the years of dry yeast baking. I have BBA and Crust and Crumb coming on the Bookmobile later this month, so I look forward to learning a great deal about these and many other things. So much good stuff to study and learn!
As to crust and steam, I do like a pretty thick and dark crust, but I still intend to experiment with steaming methods. Initially I will find one I like and stick with it, so it is not a variable in my results. Later, after I have achieved some consistency I'll be in a position to know if changes in steaming methods have made a difference or not. One step at a time, though.
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement.
OldWoodenSpoon
Last post for this thread, I promise...
I revisited the exact recipe I posted about earlier, and as I said, had some better luck. The dough came to me this time, and I was able to shape it somewhat more cleanly this time. I have three photos:
This was the start, very wet as you can tell.
and then, almost magically
and finally the loaf and crumb...
This was all in process by the time I got David Snyder's coments. I used the ice pan for stem, and I will revisit this again (and again...) with his comments in mind. I have already learned so much that I have to try, and test. This is great!
(I like this bread, but it looks like a torpedo!)
That came out really fine. Beautiful crumb! Bravo!
The next step is repeatability - and then fine tuning!
You are doing great!
Jay
is the next issue, and thanks for the compliments. I'm keeping at it. This past weekend of blunders certainly taught me humility though. My sourdough loaves came out very nice again, but my Whole Wheat Sandwich loaves, and my sourdough rolls fell flat, literally.
The story of forgetting the salt in my batch of dough for the rolls is told elsewhere here on TFL, but up to now I have kept the whole wheat failure to myself. I grossly overproofed it trying to fill pans that were too big. They collapsed completely the instant the heat hit them. They baked up into very fine wheat-bricks.
I am thankful for two things (at least) in this circumstance: First, my wife is an avid composter, so the bread will be recycled into winter green salad. Second, my starter is getting better and better, and is exuberantly active. It revs up quickly, and I blame none of my results on the starter. Instead, I must watch my dough more, and my clock less, when I bake.
OldWoodenSpoon