WFO Pics
We fired the oven today. I made tortillas while the oven was heating, then pizza. I still need to get the deck a little hotter. But the pizzas were good. I used Reinhart's Roman dough and the Neo-Neapolitan dough. The I baked 3 kinds of bread. I made Hamelma's Wheat bread with multigrain soaker. I used different grain than he does. Just want I had on hand. Then I made a barley bread. It is a spin off of Hamelman's Rustic bread. The boules could use a little work on the scoring. I know. But it was 95 outside and I was trying to hurry loading all 6 loaves. The last bread is BBA Sourdough Potato cheddar and chive bread. We love that stuff. The coloring on the potato bread is a little weak. It was in the front of the oven. I need to work on laoding so I can get more in the oven and in a better location. But all in all I think it went well. Thanks to all the other Woodies out there for their input and help along the way.
That is another issue I need to figure out. I use steam in my regular oven with good results. But I am not sure how to get steam in the wood fire oven. I tried spraying the top of the loaves. I do mop the bricks but I don't want to hit it with too much water or it will cool the bricks too much. Maybe I just need to spray the walls before I put the door on. Maybe some of the other WFO owners have some tips.
Thanks for the compliments on the shaping and the pizza. It sure was good pizza too. Esp with the homemade mozzarella. I saved some of the whey to use in the white sandwich bread I am baking today.
Steam in a WFO is a bit controversial. If you get too "enthusiastic", you can set up thermal shock in your bricks, causing them to crack or fail prematurely. I understand that Alan Scott actually began to recommend that WFO users refrain from steaming for this reason.
That said, As Dan implied, if you're baking bread (i.e., the fire is raked out), a full oven will produce a surprising amount of steam just from the loaves. If you must bake less than a full load, I've had success using a garden sprayer (new, clean and never used for chemicals) set to as fine a spray pattern as possible, misting the chamber a few times in the first several minutes of the bake. Mist after the loaves are loaded, and close the door tightly immediately after steaming. Note that you DO NOT spray the walls or floor directly, just direct the mist into the oven over the loaves. If the spray is fine enough, and the oven is hot, the spray never touches the masonry -- it just turns to steam before it can hit the walls.
Mopping the floor really doesn't help much -- the mop shouldn't be wet enough to make much steam, and any steam it does produce escapes in a few seconds. It's also important to make sure your door seals well. It doesn't have to be airtight, but there shouldn't be any appreciable gaps between it and the oven's door frame.
ClimbHi
Pittsburgh, PA
I am thinking I just need to work on loading. The 6 loaves was maybe not enough to fill the oven. Plus I think it should have been a little hotter. If you look at the pictures the wheat loaves in the back got the most color. The white boules were okay and the potato long loaves in the front got the least color. The ones in the front were really close to the door. Like I said I need to work on loading. I may try the garden sprayer.
Do you pre fire your oven the day before? We baked the tortillas, then pizza, then bread. We intitially fired for about 1 1/2 hrs before the pizza. I cooked the tortillas while it was initially firing. I still don't think I am getting it hot enough. Then after the pizza we respread the fire and added another loag and let that burn about 30-45 min. The cleaned and closed the door for about 20 min then loaded the bread. What do you think ClimbHi. Got any suggestions for me on the fire?
... for a conventional oven that may translate to a WFO: put a loaf tin in the oven when you start the fire with some largish stones in it. Then, when you load the loaves, pour water onto the stones. This should protect the tiles?
do you have a wood door? i soak mine before baking to prevent scorching the door and to provide steam in the oven. it seems to work well.
I have a wood door but we covered had it covered in sheet metal like the plans from Alan Scott recommended. So I am wondering about the idea of putting a wet towel on the inside of the door then putting the door on.
filled with some wet towels..my door gets pretty sooty and would not hold enough towel to make plenty of steam. In the pan the towels can be rolled thicker so they would probably let off more steam.
There are directions at the http://fornobravo.com site on how to properly steam your oven. They say you should steam your oven first before the bread goes in and then again after it's loaded. Spraying water into your oven is supposed to evaporate into a mist before it can ever hit onto the walls so don't worry about cracking the walls etc. If using a mop go lightly with water wring it out good when removing the ash...it cools the floor down. The natural convection created by the dome shaped ovens circulates the steam around. Also opening and closeing your door is going to release the steam . If you have a wooden door...some people soak those! There is a lot of great forum/photos and discussion at this site and it would be very helpful! Everyone's oven is a little different. The heat needs to settle/even out into your oven before baking..sweep it out close the door and wait for the temp to drop and settle into the floors, walls, ceilings evenly...I think your oven needs to be hotter for better browning/carmelization on your loaves. I've had the same thing happen when my oven wasn't hot enough...this all takes practice in knowing your oven...I'm still practicing and learning about how my oven reacts. So these are just some suggestions that might help!
Sylvia
I have precisely no experience with WFO's, but wouldn't the same methods used for electric ovens work? For example, couldn't you pre-heat a cast iron skillet (optionally filled with lava rocks) in the oven and pour boiling water into it right after loading the loaves?
Max Poilâne's oven's have a recess in the floor which holds a metal receptacle into which water is poured just before loading his miches. He also mops the oven deck. Here is a You Tube video of his whole process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4RiJs1a92U&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbonneau%2Esiteparc%2Efr%2Fforums%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ff%3D45%26t%3D33786%26sid%3Dd18f18579...
The oven steaming method starts at about 2:30 minutes into the video.
David
I think I have seen that video...but those are a little different type ovens they have the fire is below and not inside the ovens. So many different kinds of WFO. Some people actually just squirt with a hose into the ovens..spray bottle of water and the mopping out of the ash creates a nice steam that stays in and just circulates with the convection action...sort of like a giant la cloche the bread also steams the oven...There are brick bread ovens that are small and fire underneath and then are bread/pizza ovens with fire in the oven.
Sorry, David..I didn't answer that very well. Got distracted for a moment..you could put an iron pan in and you probably wouldn't have to heat it first..it's going to get really hot on it's own just by leaving it in the oven a little earlier. You could add the steam this way The steams going to stay in because there is no venting, vents. The chimney/flute if there is one is made in the front of the oven and when the door goes on the chimney/flute opening is on the outside of the oven. Not like a fireplace where the chimney is inside the firepit.
Sylvia
I think I may try a cast iron skillet next time to create more steam. I also think I need to get it hotter. I was pretty happy with the results considering this was the second time we have baked in it period. We even threw a stew in it over night. The stew turned out pretty good. the chicken we put in there with it weren't done. But oh well. There are bound to be casualties along the way. But it is fun and challenging trying to get all the bread dough ready to bake on schedule with the oven!
The heat is stored into the depth of the walls of your oven. The saying... more fire thats put into your oven the more you can take out. The longer you want to bake the longer the firing of your oven. The loaves are going to remove the heat and then more will come into the oven. The leveling out of the oven is important to let the walls and floor absorb the heat evenly..or your going to have a hot floor than burns the loaf bottom and only lightly browns the top. The pizza ovens are so deeply insulted that they can be 1000F and you can lay your hand on the outside of the oven and it is cool.
You will probably get the same results by just getting a large spray bottle of water aiming at the back walls of your oven and spraying. It is supposed to explode into steam and never really even gets a chance to hit the walls! It's a lot easier...the pan is also absorbing heat from your oven.
You lose heat every time you open the oven to spray it.
The pan does absorb heat, and it releases heat. Like the baking stone, the cast iron skillet acts as a heat buffer to help the ambient temperature hold constant.
As Lee says, "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it." ;-)
David
Hi David, your theory sounds good! I have baked pan loaves in my oven the next morning when the oven is fired up long enough the day before.... But I'll stick with the spraying or how about putting damp rags into a sheet pan! I can't get the link to work right but check out Jim Wills/Mary G. Bakery bakes on at http://www.fornobravo.com on search type in 'steam in brick oven' he suggest spraying or the wet rags in the sheet pan.
Edit to link... http://www.fornobravo.com
I'd tried water in a pan , ice cubes & spraying the oven & the easiest & safest is a steam cleaning machine for home use
From the standpoint of comparing a inside home oven and an outdoor wood fired oven, I make these observations.
Recently DSnyder has been creating large billowing clouds of steam like the Nuke Plant down the road using lava rocks. With all of the electronics in a modern oven, is that a good thing? Is the spring really better than if you cover and use NO additional water? What ever the answer is, and there is certainly room for personal taste here, I don't think my experience shows it matters much. I do know my oven door window is cracked and it's a discontinued part.Grrr
Eric
Eric, Mini and I were wondering if the 10-12 minutes of steaming is aimed at yeasted dough as opposed to sourdough. My sourdough rises for about 18 minutes under a bowl, so I don't remove the bowl until then.
Any thoughts?
Susan from San Diego
I have no experience with WFO's, but, from what I've read, they work like convection ovens to circulate the hot air, and, if closed, would contain whatever moisture evaporates from the loaves. And least some bakers at moisture before loading the WFO, but I don't know how much difference this really makes.
I can't say I see a big difference between using the bowl to cover the loaf and steaming the oven as I currently do. I decide which method to use according to convenience. If I am baking breaqs that will easily fit under a cover I have (bowl or roaster), that's easier. If I am baking 2 or 3 boules or 3-4 baguettes, I steam the oven.
I am frankly mystified by the difference between Susan's results and mine. She gets gorgeous boules with amazing oven spring and well-caramelized crusts covering the bread for 18 of 30 (?) minutes. When I've covered a boule for 15 minutes or more, I get an unattractively shiny crust with less browning than I like.
Is this because Susan keeps the oven super hot as long as the bread is covered? Could the size or shape of the bowl make a difference? Any other ideas?
David
=== The Wood Fired Oven of olden days I don't believe had any consideration for steam. If so I haven't seen any articles indicating how it was done. ===
Daniel Leader noted that his bakery's brick ovens, built to classic designs, have cast-iron pots hanging inside for creating hot water vapor. Those ovens are quite large and when I read that I think of something the size of a dutch oven.
In _Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book_ the authors reported trying several systems for creating hot water vapor in their backyard brick oven, including cast iron and copper pipes. Neither were satisfactory (due to rust dripping from the pipes IIRC) and they eventually replaced them with stainless steel pipes and flash pad. In retrospect we now know that was the first oven that Alan Scott built, so I imagine it was a good system.
sPh
Learning a WFO is a passion not a science. Your oven will be different than mine. Different than anybody's. That said ... great pics! And it looks like you're well on your way. Makes me grin all over.
I'm mopping the deck, and didn't see any discernible difference. I'm in an exceptionally dry climate and steam is hard to come by. Caramelization has been a question as well. But the cast iron pan is a good thought.
I'm now going to try the wet rag protecting the door, trick.
More pics as I get better at pics. Bought a FLIP video camera (on sale at Amazon for $49 instead of $149) and hope to post a FLICKR video.
Good looking product, Janijeane.
Why thank you so much. It is a big learning curve but worth it I think. The flavor you get on the bread is so nice!! We are going to fire again this weekend. We have done a test fire or two and think we have some ideas on getting it hotter. Also i did pick up a small cast iron skillet last weekend, so we will see if that helps. I am going to try the rag on the door as well. I guess I need to come up with some breads to bake this weekend besides pizza. Hate to waste all that heat!!!!
Whenever i fire it up for a pizza session i always make a batch of loaves to go in after the fire comes out.
The floor of the oven is scuffed out with a wet (wrung out ) teatowel attached to a broom handle and rotated to flick out the ash and dust mostly to leave a nice clean surface for the bread pieces.
The oven will hold 20 to 25 loaves scaled at 500 grams. If loaded quickly and the door closed and kept closed a fair amount of steam vapour is generated. your initial dough piece will loose 10% - 11% of weight in the full process of baking and cooling.
One of the main things that steam is used for is to cushion the dough piece from the initial heat of the oven, steam 100 degrees oven heat 200+ degrees
At home if i want to try to add a steamy environment to the gas convection oven i use a flat pizza tray on the very bottom of the oven, when i have loaded the dough pieces i pour just a little boiling water into the tray, i dont have to handle or move the tray , i only pour a small amount so that it will have all gone in 5 to 10 minutes.
In the WFO i have not really had to worry as the oven is full and seems to generate enough vapour of its own. i do open the door for a minute or two if i want to have a crisper harder crust to allow that moisture to escape.
Just looking at the pics of the pizza cooking i noticed you have a lot more fire than i use, my fire has been pushed right to the sides of the oven and is more glowing embers than flame . it usually takes me 3 hours to get a good bed of embers established but then we have been able to get 40 x 200gram pizzas baked off.
Then its pull out what is left of the embers and allow the oven to cool for a little while and then in with the bread.
Picture of batch of dark ale and sprouted wheat 50% wholemeal bread
sorry about the treble up of pics still getting used to putting them on
Seems like there are as many opinions, types of gear, methods, etc. concerning steam in the oven as there are about the vagaries, the rights and wrongs, of sourdough, levain, barm, starter. When you get right down to it, both are pretty simple.
I have to say that steaming a properly built WFO does not risk thermal shock to the bricks or modular components. If so, why do even the oldest WFOs in Paris have steam injection systems? How that type of idea gets started, I don't know. I've steamed an awful lot of ovens, both brick and modular, and never cracked a one. My AS barrel vault is eight years old now, and I steam it every time I use it for bread; not a crack anywhere. If thermal shock is a possibility, how about loading a dozen kilo boule at 40F, right from the cooler, onto a 550 F hearth?
If you use high hydration formulas, you will get the best bake with more loaves on the deck, because they will contribute their own amount of steam.
Let's keep it simple. I use a cheapo pump garden sprayer from Home Depot. I usually steam the oven before loading, load the loaves, then point the nozzle upward toward the dome and spray until I can actually see a cloud of steam in the oven. The spray never actually touches the bricks, because it vaporizes too quickly. The door (seals very tight) is put on immediately. Usually vent the steam halfway through the bake.
Not steaming at all--or enough--will result in poor volume, lack of caramelization, not enough oven spring, poor crust development, tight crumb. Proper slashing or docking to a depth of about half an inch will contribute to both spring and volume.
CJ