a rye sour v a rye sourdough
Yesterday, I made 2 identical rye breads -- except one got a yeast spike and the other didn't. 
On the left in both pictures, the loaf with the yeast spike. On the right, the full sourdough.
These were both 45% rye (all prefermented)/55% bread flour (from the same bags of flour), 75% hydration, 1.3% salt, 0.5% caraway (a little low, I ran out). They were baked in the in the same dutch oven at the same temp (450F/232C) for the same amount of time (20 minutes lid on, 20 minutes lid off, 4 minutes out of the dutch oven entirely)
I wanted the rye sour to stay on the counter for 8-9 hours, but, due to my schedule, it stayed out for 12-13 hours. I bulked and proofed the yeasted dough for 2 hours and 30 minutes and the non-yeasted dough for 3 hours and 15 minutes. As you can see from the tip of the knife blade, I sliced into both while they were still hot.
My partner, my father (the 101-year-old rye maven) and I all agree that the yeasted one is loftier, the crust thinner and crispier, the crumb somewhat airier. The others didn't detect any difference in taste, but I do: I think the yeasted boule has a deeper and somewhat more tangy flavor. And it's getting better over time.
I don't want to draw a final conclusion from a single experiment (& not everything was the same in that the sourdough loaf proofed while my kitchen was quite hot from baking the yeasted loaf), but right now I am thinking that this recipe benefits from using the rye sour purely as a sour and not as the primary leavening agent.
Rob
Yeast is made for a reason - as you saw. Use it if it helps - don't use it if it doesn't. I'm still (it's been a long time) using yeast till it's gone - which may be another year at the rate it's used. Commercial yeast (specifically) has it's place. Use it if ya like it. Enjoy!
Yeast is really fascinating! I still use my own—I just love experimenting in the kitchen!
There are many recipes in Stanley's book "The Rye Baker" that use the rye sour for flavor - and also for acidification in high-rye recipes - and yeast for rising. Yours look very inviting!
TomP
Nice experiment. Another confirmation of my experience with rye sourdough. I regularly bake 80% sourdough rye with a rye soaker and bake it with and without an 0.5% IDY spike. The loaves with the IDY have a slightly lighter crumb and larger volume with a better mouth-feel that is my preferred.
Cheers,
Gavin
Though this may be confirmation bias, I think I get a more profound rye flavor in the yeast-spiked loaf.
Also, here's a weird side note: till about a year ago, I got fantastic results from the pure sourdough formula (see: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/73244/45-rye). Then something changed. Using the same flour and same formula, the bread suddenly became less lofty and the crust thicker. I played around with lots of things -- timings, innoculation, more consistent refreshes of my starter, hydration, the quality of the water, etc. -- and the only change that really tracked was that the outfit from which I get my rye flour added a new granite grinding wheel and this seems to have made its rye flour slightly finer. Now, it seems to ferment way faster. Using yeast seems to have restored a fudge factor to my timings & the loaves come out of the oven taller, with better crust and crumb.
Rob
Regarding the "change" - that will happen over time for most users. Really the key is catching it before it "changes". Enjoy!
Rob (or anyone else). I am a little confused about what a 'rye sour' is.
I have looked on here as well as many other places online, and I get many different explanations, from being simply a rye pre-ferment inoculated with a certain amount of SD starter, to being a base rye SD starter, to a yeasted rye pre-ferment with caraway and chopped onion included in it, to many other combinations somewhere in-between.
Apologies if I a missing something obvious, but would be grateful for any clarifications as I love the kind of deli rye breads I have seen here and it seems a 'rye sour' is the key ingredient.
Congratulations on the great loaves, BTW!
Yeah, Rene, the terminology is annoyingly unclear. Sometimes, 'rye sour' simply means the small amount of 100% rye starter that is used to start fermentation. That's what Stanley Ginsberg often calls a 'rye sour' in recipes on The Rye Baker blog.
At other times, 'rye sour' means the 100% rye pre-ferment (rye flour plus a certain amount of rye starter and water left to ferment at room temperature for some hours) used in baking some varieties of high %age ryes.
In this post, I'm using it as a shorthand to distinguish the two ways I used identical pre-ferments (I pre-fermented one large mass of rye flour and halved it to use in the two boules). In one loaf, I used it principally as a souring agent -- a source of acidity & flavor -- while the bread was leavened primarily with commercial yeast. In the other I relied only on the yeasts in the pre-ferment to raise the dough as well as to acidify and flavor it.
Rob
Do you think the degree of fermentation is relevant here? I've always interpreted it as implying that it is a very ripe rye levain and hence more sour?
You might be right, Jon. If I had fermented the 'rye sour' for the planned 8-9 hours instead of the schedule-lengthened 12-13, I'm guessing the sourdough leavened loaf would have been the equal of the yeast-spiked loaf, but they both might have had less pronounced flavor.
Rob
It means just what it says - which can vary depending on who you are and where you are. Hence the problem. Enjoy!
Interesting - can you organize a small blind taste test? Ask someone else to cut some of each bread and you taste it not knowing which is which?
👍🏼 I did a blind test with my father & my partner. Neither of them saw the full loaves before eating. Both of them felt a difference in the crumb & crust but they both thought the flavor was close to identical. Next time I bake, I'll try it the other way around -- me blindfolded & them being the knowing ones. 😵💫🤣
OK, cool! Let's see what you find out yourself next time :)
But I guess it makes sense, considering most of the flavour would come from the starter after such long starter fermentation and not from the dough fermentation itself, and the yeast would affect the rising time and texture...
... so: same identical set up (45% rye/55% bread flour, 1% caraway, 1% salt, 78% hydration) and process and ...
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This time the full-sourdough loaf is on the left and the yeasted bread is on the right -- which means the full-sourdough loaf is a little taller.
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full-sourdough crumb ⬆️
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yeast spiked crumb⬆️
The full-sourdough loaf is more open and the crust is crispier.
BUT -- and I am not imagining this, as my brother agrees -- the yeast-spiked bread has a deeper & more interesting sour rye flavor.
Rob
--more confirmation: a friend came over last night & did a blind taste test & picked the yeast-spiked bread. "This one has more caraway," he declared (not true: they both had an equal amount.) When I told him that, he said: "They're both good, but this one [waving the one with yeast] has much more flavor."
Interesting tale, love that it includes a clear winner and cameo from the 101 year old dad