That sandwich really made me want to be in NY again! But the bread is the star of the show. Looks like the real deal.
Apologies if you have already posted it, but would be great to have the recipe. Been trying to make a bread like that for ages. I have nice resulting breads, but not ones that look like the real deli rye loaves like these do, both in terms of crumb and crust.
I too miss the dirty noisy hustling and busling streets of NYC.
Since the formula I used is copyright protected I cannot in good conscience post it here. It would not be fair to my friend Stan. That being said, the co- author of the volume in question, Norm Berg, (RIP) posted his original formula scaled down, right here in our public forum. Enjoy!
Completely understand regarding the IP for the recipe and thank you very much for pointing me to the relevant posting here. Sometimes one needs a pointer from someone who knows their way around the site here rather rely on the search function to find some of the gems. Shame the link s and photos don't seem to work.
Will convert to metric and look-up making a rye sour.
I was just looking at this recipe, Rene, and it struck me how little rye flour it takes to make a great sour rye.
From what I understand, a rye sour is simply an all-rye starter or levain -- and from my experience with my starter, 1 cup's worth, a volume measure, might include somewhere between 100 & 200 g of fermented rye flour, depending on how firmly packed and how much it had expanded while fermenting. A pound of first clear would be 453 g. So, at best, this sour rye would be 30% rye. And it could be half as much.
Perhaps I've got this wrong and brother Roadside Pie can de-mystify.
A rye sour is merely a sourdough culture made with rye flour. I just do two room temperature feeding of my white flour culture with rye. That gives me the mostly rye sourdough culture. If my math is correct Renee, the total preferred flour (all rye) from I.J.B. is 40%. I would shot for that mark. I use dark rye not the white rye called for. Additionally, for the first clear high protein King Arthur Sir Lacealot makes for a fine substitute. It is 14% protein. Use as high a protein as you have 12% bread flour should work a peach!
I guess the thinking with regard to rye and wheat is to use the rye to bring in vigorous fermentation and a degree of sourness to the loaf and use the wheat flour to give it some lift to have a not too heavy loaf. So, as long as that can be achieved, the rye has done its job, even at a low-ish %.
One of my most baked SD loaves is a kind of campagne loaf with around 25% dark rye, all used in a liquid pre-ferment and the rest strong white or AP. What I have struggled with in comparison with the rye here is the crumb and crust. My loaves come out with large alveoli and a crunchy but thickish crust, very much like a typical campagne loaf.
No problem with that, we always strive for large alveoli, right? But Pie's rye and the ones I have tried in NYC and also Poland like Pie's have a tighter but still soft and chewy crumb, and a crunchy but thin crust. And, try as much as I can, I still cannot get to that. The cornstarch wash might help with the crust, so I will try it, but think there is more to that than just the wash. But the crumb I am not sure what to try.
So I made this recipe -- at 45% whole rye/55% bread flour. It tastes great. But the crumb is a little tighter than I would have wanted, and certainly tighter than I have achieved in the all-sourdough/no yeast method I've been using.
Maybe I could have fermented it longer (I did 2 1/4 hours.) Maybe the crumb was impeded by my scheduling -- I left the dough on the counter to double in volume before I shaped it, and I baked it soon thereafter.
Whatever, these are quibbles. The crust is thin and crispy and it's great eating.
I gave a slice to my father, who grew up in new york city and spent all his life in the NYC area, and, by virtue of all that eating experience (he's 101), is a self-taught deli rye connoisseur. He loved it.
Interestingly, Will, it's actually sourer than the all-sourdough versions I made. And that's gotten more pronounced in the almost 24 hours since I baked it.
That sandwich really made me want to be in NY again! But the bread is the star of the show. Looks like the real deal.
Apologies if you have already posted it, but would be great to have the recipe. Been trying to make a bread like that for ages. I have nice resulting breads, but not ones that look like the real deli rye loaves like these do, both in terms of crumb and crust.
I too miss the dirty noisy hustling and busling streets of NYC.
Since the formula I used is copyright protected I cannot in good conscience post it here. It would not be fair to my friend Stan. That being said, the co- author of the volume in question, Norm Berg, (RIP) posted his original formula scaled down, right here in our public forum. Enjoy!
Please post your results too.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6145/sour-rye-bread-norm039s-formula
Completely understand regarding the IP for the recipe and thank you very much for pointing me to the relevant posting here. Sometimes one needs a pointer from someone who knows their way around the site here rather rely on the search function to find some of the gems. Shame the link s and photos don't seem to work.
Will convert to metric and look-up making a rye sour.
Keep posting your evocative classic loaves Pie!
I was just looking at this recipe, Rene, and it struck me how little rye flour it takes to make a great sour rye.
From what I understand, a rye sour is simply an all-rye starter or levain -- and from my experience with my starter, 1 cup's worth, a volume measure, might include somewhere between 100 & 200 g of fermented rye flour, depending on how firmly packed and how much it had expanded while fermenting. A pound of first clear would be 453 g. So, at best, this sour rye would be 30% rye. And it could be half as much.
Perhaps I've got this wrong and brother Roadside Pie can de-mystify.
Rob
Correct, Rob.
A rye sour is merely a sourdough culture made with rye flour. I just do two room temperature feeding of my white flour culture with rye. That gives me the mostly rye sourdough culture. If my math is correct Renee, the total preferred flour (all rye) from I.J.B. is 40%. I would shot for that mark. I use dark rye not the white rye called for. Additionally, for the first clear high protein King Arthur Sir Lacealot makes for a fine substitute. It is 14% protein. Use as high a protein as you have 12% bread flour should work a peach!
Best
Will F.
Thanks, Will!
Thanks Will. You posted while I was writing my reply to Rob, so maybe you address some of my questions there.
Regarding the "European" style crumb. Just shoot for a full proof.
Thanks for the clarifications Rob. Very helpful.
I guess the thinking with regard to rye and wheat is to use the rye to bring in vigorous fermentation and a degree of sourness to the loaf and use the wheat flour to give it some lift to have a not too heavy loaf. So, as long as that can be achieved, the rye has done its job, even at a low-ish %.
One of my most baked SD loaves is a kind of campagne loaf with around 25% dark rye, all used in a liquid pre-ferment and the rest strong white or AP. What I have struggled with in comparison with the rye here is the crumb and crust. My loaves come out with large alveoli and a crunchy but thickish crust, very much like a typical campagne loaf.
No problem with that, we always strive for large alveoli, right? But Pie's rye and the ones I have tried in NYC and also Poland like Pie's have a tighter but still soft and chewy crumb, and a crunchy but thin crust. And, try as much as I can, I still cannot get to that. The cornstarch wash might help with the crust, so I will try it, but think there is more to that than just the wash. But the crumb I am not sure what to try.
Rene: My go-to rye these days is a riff on Ilya's fantastic foolproof recipe, which is similar to this one but without the added commercial yeast. I pushed the rye sour to 45% of total flour (the remaining 55% is bread flour) and, when my starter is tip-top, it turns out a delicious bread -- crispy crust, tight but soft crumb, and the whole loaf seeming light as air.
Rob
The simplest and the most loved...
Possibly a malicious link above ?
All of them point to TFL posts.
Paul
It seemed suspicious to me. With you stamp of approval I will now check it out.
Additionally.
Apologies to the OP for my distrust.
https://youtu.be/WrMGGouem3c?si=senDHbZBhlVCcijc
Good work, Will.
Paul
Hi Will:
So I made this recipe -- at 45% whole rye/55% bread flour. It tastes great. But the crumb is a little tighter than I would have wanted, and certainly tighter than I have achieved in the all-sourdough/no yeast method I've been using.
image0(23).jpeg
image1(18).jpeg
Maybe I could have fermented it longer (I did 2 1/4 hours.) Maybe the crumb was impeded by my scheduling -- I left the dough on the counter to double in volume before I shaped it, and I baked it soon thereafter.
Whatever, these are quibbles. The crust is thin and crispy and it's great eating.
Thanks!
Rob
I gave a slice to my father, who grew up in new york city and spent all his life in the NYC area, and, by virtue of all that eating experience (he's 101), is a self-taught deli rye connoisseur. He loved it.
Thanks again, Will.
Rob
I think the "European" crumb we achieved, is in fact near perfect for a NY deli rye. Smile...
I am so glad you enjoyed the formula.
Interestingly, Will, it's actually sourer than the all-sourdough versions I made. And that's gotten more pronounced in the almost 24 hours since I baked it.