Starter Flat-lined: Advice?
I have a ten year old starter I got from a baker friend at the Farmers Market here in Gretna, LA. I always had my starter in the fridge, never a problem- even after hurricanes.
This time I took out my starter, fed it, and waited.
The starter, after 12 hours, smelled and looked exactly like it was supposed to.
But there was no rise, no life, with few bubbles.
Note: The only thing I did that might have damaged it, is I put it out on the windowsill. While there is no direct sunlight, it still is damn bright.
I have struggled with bringing it to life for over two weeks. I even "rebooted" it, using a tiny amount of starter and discarding and feeding as if it was a new starter.
So far nothing, smells great, absolutely great, but absolutely no rise, no doubling, nothing goes over the rubber band.
Help! This starter is over 10 years old and would prefer to save it.
One starter I used AP Flour (Arrowhead) the other one I used 50/50 whole wheat/bread flour.
Both are flatlined.
PS: I have a dried backup starter powder. But that behaved the same when I tried it a week ago.
I tried another dehydrated starter I once made, 12 hours- nothing, using whole wheat flour.
Should I continue these experiments or start a new starter? I also have a lot of discard from when I first took it out of the fridge.
Thanks for any suggestions you may have,
How long had it been since the refrigerated starter was fed?
I have been feeding and discarding for about 2 weeks. I have three samples currently. They are there smelling like wondrous lacto roses.
stiff starter has some rise. Clone has some hooch.
miiiiiiight be good.
Get a dough consistency - wait till it thins out - repeat. When it takes a day or so to thin out it's ready for use. Enjoy!
Not sure what you mean by consistency or which starter. I have three experiments going. A new one from dried starter, a stiff one with wheat, and another with AP flour that is rather flat.
Consistency = how it feels. Will work for any starter. Enjoy!
Would you please describe how you refresh your starter(s) exactly, Valdus? Proportions, temperature?
For sourdough yeast to proliferate and produce gas (leaven the dough) it needs three things
1) optimal temperature (28-32C),
2) optimal nutrition (3% sugar, NA flours have 0% sugar and not all flours are malted, have enzymes added by millers) and
3) optimal refreshment periods, not too short and not too long. If you refresh twice a day at 27C, for example, the best schedule is 8hrs+ 16hrs, i.e.one refreshment favors bacteria and another - yeasts.
Some sourdough yeasts cannot tolerate cold. That was the case of San-Francisco sourdough starter when it was discovered by scientists in the seventies. When refrigerated, it would simply flatline. The myths about it being a local culture which was unable to syrvive in other cities proliferated. But that was not the case. Its yeast would die unable to survive at the temperatures below 8-10C, i.e. refrigerated. So in between bakes it had to be kept either on its owner's body as gold prospectors had it or at least in a cool but not cold place (10-12C).
Some sourdough yeasts do not survive either drying or rehydration step, if it is not done correctly (1hr at 40C, then for 24-48hrs at 30C). Even baker's yeast strains are like that, for example, active dry yeast strain has to be rehydrated at 38-42C first, even room temperature water kills it, let alone cold water, whereas instant dry yeast strain is OK even with ice cold water.
So you either had few if any living cells left in your refrigerated and dried samples, or they did not survive the refreshment process, or your refreshment process does not allow them to thrive and grow in numbers.
I'll share my experiences with yeastless starters, I had a couple like yours in the past, and what helped to restore or reintroduce sd yeast in them, but first please describe your feeding ratios and temperature at which your starters stand in between refreshments.
I feed my starter, either whole wheat or whole wheat/ bakers flour and keep it at a constant 82 degrees F. I do it about every twelve or twenty four hours. I just did it this morning and the dried starter, discard or stiff starter have not risen from the respective line.
My ratio has been usually 30-30-35.
They've been fed now so don't do anything more till they show signs of life. If you continue to discard and feed before they've re-activated, you'll be throwing away all the good stuff and you'll end up with plain flour and water.
Instead of feeding just give them a stir for now.
Not a feeding. I just stirred it and changed the top to a paper towel and rubber band for more oxygen.
Will wait…
Ok, thanks!
To restore your dried starter, if you have a portion of dried starter left, take a small amount of dried flakes, add to them a small pinch of sugar or a drop of honey and distilled water (105F/40C) to make a paste, and keep it covered at 82F/28C for 48hours (full two days), undisturbed. Then refresh/feed it bread flour and water, cover and keep it undisturbed for 24hrs at 28C/82F. Then it should be ready to use in baking.
If you have no dried starter left, you can do the same with your reconstituted from dried starter: 3% sugar added to it, flour or bran added to it to make a stiff paste, covered and left for 48hrs at 82F/28C.
You say that one of them is a stiff starter, however that is not possible with 30-30-35.
Anyways, what helped me with a white nearly dead 100% hydration starter was to feed it with a scald, either all of the flour in the feeding portion was scalded (mixed with water 1f:3w and heated to 160F/70C, until it thickens) or only half of it, let it cool then mix this scald (and raw flour if you wish) with your starter, 3% sugar, and enough water to mimic 100% hydration dough.
The flour in the scald should be at least a shade darker than the bread/all-purpose flour that you are using now, i.e higher extraction. You can add a pinch of bran, crushed bran cereal, or whole grain flour to bread flour if you do not have slightly higher extraction flours at home, like type 650-750 flours.
The starter woke up and bubbled like crazy immediately (overnight).Scalded and sweetened higher extraction flours have a magical effect on liquid starters, mostly because they provide yeasts with all the necessary nutrition in extracted (dissolved) and easily digested (cooked) form.
What helped me with a stiff white flour starter that smelled amazing of sourdough, like lactic roses as you said, but was not risng at all, was to prepare a portion of "liquid sourdough yeast" and use it to feed the starter.
For that I mixed 6 cups of water, a heaping spoon of spelt flour, a heaping spoon of that yeastless but sour stiff starter, and a few squished raw grapes for nutrition. Covered it and let it stand for three days undisturbed. The first two days it smelled like kefir or yogurt, later, as a bowl of champagne, full of sourdough yeasts gassing.
I used that liquid, strained , and a portion of whole wheat flour to feed that refrigerated white stiff starter. Of course, it rose, doubling, and then I switched to only water and bread flour.
.
The first feeding of the refrigerated flat starter with that liquid yeast and whole wheat flour doubled.
The following feedigs with water and bread/all-purpose flours gave a normal 100%hydration white sourdough starter, that quadruples in volume in 6 hours or less at 82F/27C and stands tall for hours without deflating much (my flours are fortified with vitamin C, that helps).
You have given me a wealth of knowledge to choose from.
This is all extremely interesting and is another illustration that there are many, many ways to producing a starter. I still am not convinced, though, that the original flat starter was brought back to life - as opposed to a new starter having been created. I don't know how one could tell, without being able to analyze the actual organisms, if that was the case. I suppose one could go through all the same steps without including bits of the old flat starter and see if things evolved differently.
I recently got a new starter going beginning with "beaten rice". Beaten rice is white rice that has been smashed flat into flakes, sometimes with and sometimes without a heat treatment. I covered some of the flakes with water, and when that had been absorbed added more water until the flakes remained covered by the water. I covered the bowl with plastic wrap and left it on the kitchen counter. Nothing seemed to be happening until day 3. Then it had a somewhat fruity smell, one I had never smelled from a starter before.
At that point I added some white flour and adjusted the water so the mixture was still rather liquidy. I stirred it from time to time through all this. The next day the fruity odor was gone, the day after that a few bubbles appeared, the next day still more. I may have fed it with more white flour and water at this point but I can't remember for sure. The next day, day 7, bingo! It appeared to be a normal white flour starter, and it could leaven dough very well.
My point is not that it's a good method to start with beaten rice. It's just that that there are so many ways to get a starter going (or maybe reconstituted) that it's hard to know if the reconstitution really happened. For my own purposes, I assume that if I can wake up a starter within two or maybe three days then it has probably been awakened from dormancy, but if it takes nearly a week it might as well be a new starter since one can be created from scratch in that time. And anyway, if it takes so much manipulation to re-awaken, then the starter's properties will have been changed so much that it might as well be a new one anyway.
How well do you cover the yeast water for the 3 days?
I cover it with a shower cap, Or a plastic shopping bag. I.e.it lets air circulate as water is self-mixing because it is so liquid and releases CO2 and aromas into the headspace. Otherwise the cover will explode under gas pressure.
Here the important thing not to miss is its alcoholic smell when it appears because, if you do not add some sugar (3% re: weight of water in the cup) at that point, the yeasts will stop working and it will take quite a while to wake them up again (over 12 hours), the yeast water will not be immediately useful.
So, measure its temperature regularly and sniff it from time to time to not miss that moment, when it smells clearly alcoholic and, if stirred or shaken, behaves like coca-cola or champagne when those are shaken or stirred.
So, wait even past the 24 hour mark?
Yes... even past the 24 hour mark.
If you see a small amount of activity then you can give them a small feed. If it picks up then increase the feeds. Feed according to the strength of the starter.
No disrespect to others’ suggestion but our own Dan suggested simply a 15/15/15 discard, 120 F water, with wheat flour and see if there is any activity in the 4, 8 or 12 hours.
This might be Angela’s last chance.
By the way, I did a slightly smaller (3cups) version of Mariana’s Franken-Yeast-Water.
I just couldn’t resist; it’s so experimental!
Next day, absolutely nothing on all fronts. I guess Ill just wait for the yeast water.
What do they smell like?
They smell like the first day of the world- great. Lacto goodness.
Is this a sign that I ran out of yeast beasts?
Smelling yoghurty is a good sign.
Its getting to the 24 hour mark since last feed 24 hours at 10 am
Give them a good stir and wait a further 12-24 hours. Waiting 2 days when a starter goes quiet is not out of the ordinary.
If you really want to do some sort of feed then I believe you have 3 experiments going so give one of them a small feed. Just a little extra water and some of the rye you have bought. Not too much! And no need to discard.
I bought some rye flour, would that make a difference?
no rise, no feedings, just a stir. Stuff has about three bubbles and very liquidy.
Rye flour and raisin yeast water (2 forms) coming up.
did you try the rye flour. I've found rye to be the key to my sourdough starter -- super active and very accommodating of time in the refrigerator.Rob
It is coming tomorrow. I am going to drizzle my whole house in rye.
covering everything with rye is highly recommended!
It is Day 4 on this strange odyssey of starter (though now it seems more like finisher). Upon waking there was no rise, smell good, very yogurty smell. Main starter jar had three bubbles.
At this point I am waiting on the rye and still fermenting raisins. One water is covered loosely the other in a jar, but the other has not hissed. Loose one is 3 days, Jar is 1 day.
I think I am going to use this post to document this strange, strange flat-line journey.
Note: I emailed Mauricio, the perfect loaf blogger. He suggested discarding and feeding once a day.
With respect, I had done that and may have diluted the starter altogether.
Thoughts?
how old is the flour you are using?
In my experience, old flour can stunt yeast growth, even if the date on the bag says it is still usable.
Rob
The flour isn’t new but not old either. I bought new bread flour and rye cometh today.
could your water be an issue?
I use the water from my fridge; it has a filter.
Rye flour here. Raisin water sitting for 3 days.
Also, one of my discard jars has hooch! Does that mean it’s active?
So, do I use that hooches discard for the starter? Raisin waters?
combos?
Valdus, although rye flour is notoriously low in yeasts, sometimes to the point of lacking them, it might contain enough wild yeast cells to help you. So, add 1 spoon of rye flour to your liquid yeast in the making, please. It won't hurt and it might help.
NO RAISINS, please, it must be unwashed and squished fresh grapes + spelt four + your starter and water held at 90 degrees F.
With chopped raisins, if you are not lucky, it would take up to 10 days at 82 degrees F for the yeast to grow. It happened to me once. It resulted in a good starter, but the method was unacceptably long.
Hooch is the sign of gluten rot. Freshly mixed dough absorbs water very well and with time it absorbs more and more until a maximum amount of gluten forms and flour proteins bind the maximum amount of water to them. With time, as gluten ages, proteins begin release water. That is what phaz called "thinning out" when he told you to track your starter's quality in his advice to you above and not to refresh too soon.
A good starter has microbes that protect gluten, so it does not thin out even in 24 hours at warm room temperature. It holds water bound to its proteins so well. Starters in their early stages have none of those bacteria and tend to become gluey, thinner, or release water very soon after refreshment.
Assuming that your discards have good lactic bacteria in them, true sourdough bacteria, the hooch is the sign of the gluten rot due to time. Normally, hooch would be alcoholic, very boozy, if your sourdough starter has yeasts in them. If it is simply acidic, then no yeast, simply water and acids released by the dough as its protein matrix ages.
I think I know what I did but….
It was like mixing a dough, you keep going, you keep going, then suddenly WHAM it all comes together. I think the infusion of rye, fine fine rye, that did it.
Congratulations, Valdus! Well done! Thank you for the update.
fantastic! Rye rules!
I got back into baking and damn if it didn’t happen again. Damn if I can’t remember what I did last time!
Just try bottled water, one time.
I will try that because now it has officially flat-lined. I will try Ed Wood's wash and bottled water. Perhaps with a bit of rye.
There must be a no-yeast curse on my fridge.
Once again the starter is slow, hardly rises. I tried both regular and stiff starter. I waited at most 24 hrs.
And now, because of my lacks in record-keeping I have no idea what the silver bullet is.
I am just going to make another starter- can you make a stiff starter from the beginning? (I like to knead rather than mix/stir)
I think I am going to wash the starter- why do I make so much acid?
The most common reason - waiting a (very) long time between refreshments. If you keep doing that you could run the pH down pretty low. Then if you refresh with a low refresh ratio the refreshed starter will start out with a lower-than-normal pH.
So first you were told "don't keep refreshing it, just stir", and now I'm saying "don't wait so long". WTF? First, most starters are pretty tolerant and those suggestions are for the extremes. Second, they apply for different different conditions. The first is for a new starter under construction or an old one that somehow has mostly run out of yeast. The second is for the case of an established starter that has been left to its own devices for way too long.
Somehow a pure rye starter can be left for weeks and months and still be usable for making rye levains. I don't know why this is.
TomP
Too thin - too long - both aren't good for a starter. And I missed it - but - starting a starter ... start small - don't let it get thin and when it does (and it will) - add more. Keep it thick and wait - could be a week (not likely) - could be a month (more like it). Enjoy!
I did a wash and at this posting (4hrs in) it has not risen, I will wait 12 hours and then re-do the wash.
Vamos a ver.
V
What do you mean by a wash? And my standard starters will hardly have started to rise by 3 or 4 hours so come on, have patience! If you keep diluting your starter and don't get growth you will drive the concentration of yeast down to near nothing.
What Ed Wood explained in his book- a cup of starter with about double of the water, stirred thoroughly and equal parts of water and flour added?
It's been 12 hours, lots of bubbles no rise, not sure if I should feed, wait or wash again.
Ill check the book.
V
We don't know if the bubbles are signs of life from what little viable starter was left, or from what is an essentially new starter. Bubbles after only 12 hours would be a little soon for a new starter so most likely this is the remnants of the old starter. That's good.
Since you only see bubbles, there hasn't been much yeast activity so you don't need to feed it again right now. Just stir it. In another say 12 hours if there are more bubbles but no rising activity, feed it a little new flour and water. Whether 1:1:1 or 1:2:2 probably won't matter much. Give it a good stir and come back in another 12 hours.
If at some point the consistency of the mix seems to thin out, then add some more flour and water again. If you start to see some rising action, you can start feeding it more often. It's not uncommon for a starter in a situation like this suddenly spring to life. It's a surprise when that happens. You just have to stick with the program.
I misspoke, its not for 12 hours, its for twenty four. So I got time.
When you say feed the starter, do I discard? Ed Wood seems to not say that for the first time, I thought it was a typo.
Wood's Wash
Update: Stirred it a bit, lots of bubbles, very very little rise.
At this point I wouldn't discard anything, since you would lose part of the little viable yeast you have. But as I wrote, I wouldn't go feeding it yet, either.
Followed the instructions for day 2 (after 24 hours) stay tuned for updates.
At this rate I might go with Easy as Pie NMNF. I love stiff starters anyway. The story of Latvians just making a starter from week to week instead of a floured legacy is becoming more and more attractive right now.
V
After 12 hours there was nothing, I will continue to feed a bit about 90g per 12 hours and see if anything happens.
V
After 12 hours in the am, there is no change. A slight rise that gives me no clues as to what to do.
Feed? Discard & Feed? Dump? Make Pizza Crust? Open to suggestions.
V
I sense this may have happened:
My starter turned liquidy very very quickly, within 12 hours, even when I stiffed it.
Like I said, I am not attached to it. It wasn't handed down to me by the estate of my Yukon great-great grandmother.
Nope, my money is on NMNF quick starter- long live rye!
V
Something has been attacking that protein, whether it's microbes or acidity. The suggestions not to feed it were based on low activity, but this hints at high activity of something (or susceptible flour).
Not sure what you mean by susceptible flour But dang it doesn't sound good. If I do have flesh-eating starter (protein eating starter) should I even use the discard for pizza dough as I had planned today?
I meant less resistant to protein degradation.
I wouldn't use a degraded starter for anything. I speak from experience. One instance: I used some in English muffin dough. They came out terrible - very sour, poor bite, low rise.
The looks of what was going on.
Ditched starter and discard. Don’t know what’s happening but final question is-
should I get rid of my flours too?
I started a quick NMNF starter with the rye so hmmm.
oh no, I did not like the feeling of the starter at all.
Next time you go to make a white wheat starter, use pineapple juice as the initial liquid instead of water. This brings the right amount of acidity to jump-start the progression of microbe types. When you go to refresh it you can use water.
If you stick with a rye starter, be aware that some people have said they had problems using the all-rye starter to make successful wheat doughs. I haven't read anything specific about the cause but microbes take time to adapt to changes in their environment, and a change in the kind of grain might be such a change.
TomP
Damn, so you're telling me that No Muss No Fuss, has fuss?
Great, just what I need to hear after I pitched my starter today.
V
Not everyone seems to have that problem, but I've seen several posts about it here on TFL. Just something to keep in mind so you can check it out for yourself.
Hmm, I have some rye starter in my fridge that hasn't been touched for a few months. Maybe I'll wake it up and then see how it does when hit with white wheat flour.
If its anything, this starter is doing really really well.
V
Everything flatlined! Perhaps premature, I dumped the ready-to-levain and now I am starting again...
New starter per Maurizio Leo and I am off again.
You seem to have an anti-Midas touch here.
What is "everything"? Does it include the rye starter you were going to get going?
I suggest that you quit jumping around, pick one approach, and stick with the program. That includes giving it enough time. There's a progression of microbes and acidity the nascent starter has to go through before the yeast can wake up and start to multiply. Let that happen with minimal interference.
Making salt-fermented pickles involves a similar progression. In that case once you have got the vegetables immersed in brine you don't do anything to it for several weeks and then you have pickles. With pickles you are looking for acidity, not yeast. But the progression of microbes and acidity is similar to making a starter.
And if you go with wheat flour, use pineapple juice for the initial liquid.
TomP
I am going pretty dang strict, I'm going to follow Maurizeo Leo's starter, which worked for me in the past.
From there I am back to the beginning, I plan on only going with recipes from his book, to begin with. That way I have one instruction, one goal.
And will someone please explain that pineapple juice thing? I live in Louisiana, where everything comes to die of heat. Some neuron way back in the brain, in a nestled spot next to childhood-trauma, is telling me that mixing fruit with sourdough is...
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!
V
The pineapple juice thing is that it provides acidity from the start. That suppresses some microbes, including a kind whose name I forget but that can make your culture sick. So you get a jump start on the progression and help avoid this disease organism. The pineapple juice apparently has just the right level of acidity to work well for creating starters.
Before you do anything else, read this long post on TFL by Debra Winks; it should open your eyes -
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
And then follow up by reading Part 2, linked to in Debra's post, or here -
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
when feeding a different flour is when I fed it rice flour. Every other flour, be it any wheat variety, rye or a non gluten grain such as buckwheat, it always responded well. But for some reason after I fed it rice flour, when checking on it 12 hours later, it had done nothing. All I did was wait! It had been fed and feeding it more, when it wasn't doing anything, would only make the problem worse. Twelve hours later it was bubbling up. So it had a 1 day sulk and then adjusted. This can happen but i've never heard it happen when switching from rye to wheat or vice versa. Wheat and rye seems to be compatible and interchangeable when it comes to fermentation abilities. But to be on the safe side, since you are making a new starter, why not include both wheat and rye in the process. As it will be made with both it should respond to both when feeding your starter and making bread with it. In other words let it have a taste for all the flours you will be using it for. Mix up some bread flour, whole wheat flour and rye flour and use that for the feedings. If you have some other flours then throw that into the mix as well. Treat it like an 'inoculation' so it recognises the flours in the future. But if it does flat-line again then don't throw it way. Just wait!
I would think that rice flour had nothing to give a starter. Curious....
Also I did not throw it all away, you know SD bakers never throw away everything. I got the two quick NMNF ryes in the fridge, not sure what to do with them.
Once your starter has gotten used to the idea of rice flour. After the lag time it was fine with rice flour.
If you are talking about an established starter, the rice is mostly starch which the microbes can break down into various sugars like any other starch. If you are talking about creating a starter, the rice probably will have a little yeast to get things going. I have read, though, that polished rice doesn't carry very much yeast. That beaten rice I tried once did well, though.
Liked everything and ate through all flours with no problem until I fed it rice flour. It stalled for 1 day and then woke up as strong as ever. After which it like rice flour.
I did try to create a rice flour starter from scratch too. Wasn't easy but got there in the end. No more of an issue as some people have with wheat flour but did seem to take longer than my wheat flour starters to get going.