Crumb is always moist/gummy/sticky
Hi!
I've been baking sourdough bread for longer than a year now, but all of my loaves have had quite a moist/gummy/sticky crumb. I understand sourdough is relatively more moist than regular yeasted breads because of the higher hydration, but compared to what I see online, and sourdough bought from a bakery, my crumb is not supposed to be so excessively sticky. This problem usually is due to underfermentation, but I'm pretty sure my starter is healthy and I'm fermenting and proofing my loaves well.
Here is one of my recent loaves; nice crumb and tastes very good, but my knife gets all tacky and these little dough balls form as well. The texture and mouthfeel could be better as it's so wet and not fluffy/dry.
And a different loaf, with the same issue...
My usual steps/recipe:
- european organic strong white flour (13% protein) usually with 20% whole wheat
- 20% white starter (100% hydration) usually fed 1:5:5, triples in 12 hours at 25°C/77°F
- 70% hydration
- 2% salt
- 2 hour autolyse
- 6.5 hour bulk ferment at 25°C/77°F (mix and then coil folds each hour or so)
- 15 hour cold proof
- open bake at 230°C/450°F for 20 mins with steam + 25 mins without steam
- wait 3 hours before slicing bread
Things I've tried already, without any succes:
- baking longer with steam/longer without steam
- baking colder/hotter
- waiting longer before cutting into bread (6+ hours)
- lower/higher hydration (55% up to 85%)
- lower protein flour (10.5%)
- intentionally under and overproofing
- different ways of baking (stainless bowl to trap steam, ice cubes, spraying the loaf before loading, oven off method etc.)
I'm very lost as to what could be causing this and would love to get a drier and less sticky crumb.
Thank you! :)
It's a gorgeous loaf, for sure!
You seem to have covered everything I would have thought of. I've certainly gotten that gummy film on the knife from time to time. Aside from leaving out the whole wheat, which you didn't mention but I'm guessing you have tried, I have an idea. Maybe it's weird.
Gumminess is usually cause by too much water that hasn't been driven out. Looking at slices, I wonder if only some parts of a slice are gummy. I don't know if you can tell that - a gummed-up knife is too crude an instrument, and chewing a slice mixes it all up. But if that were the case, I would think that the problem has something to do with the shaping of the loaf. I can see signs that the shaping has been a little uneven across the loaf - those larger, longer holes at the left and bottom of some slices are a giveaway, IMO.
So maybe there are some parts of the dough that went the other way - they got too compressed during shaping and because of that couldn't release enough water. Like I said, maybe that's a weird thought.
I do have a suggestion for reducing it, though, even if the speculation isn't right. After the loaf is completely baked, reduce the oven temperature, say to 300 or 350 deg F, and leave the loaf in the oven for another 10 or 15 minutes. With a low temperature the crust shouldn't overcook, but the interior will keep drying out. Or you could simply turn the oven off and leave the loaf in for another half an hour .
Try it, see if it helps.
TomP
Yes shaping could be better, but the crumb is definitely equally moist throughout, no dry parts to be found... I haven't tried leaving it in the oven after baking yet as I wouldn't want the crust to be much darker, but I will give it a shot!
You may have already looked at this.... I'm thinking about the normal staling process, and wondering if there is a way to accelerate that in your environment. Tom's suggestion certainly ought to help.
How do you normally store your bread? Do you live in a humid or dry climate? It's pretty dry where we live and I have to take steps to not let bread dry out too quickly (Ziploc bags, freeze part of the loaf, etc.). And I wait until the next day before slicing, no clue if that would help yours or not. It is a lovely bread!!
Hopefully you can discover the cause. 🕵🏼♀️
I usually eat the entire loaf the same day... :-) but if I have some slices left over I store them in a ziploc bag, sometimes after letting them air-dry a bit. Though, the next day they are so spongy, it's not very pleasant to eat without reheating them first. I am in the Netherlands, so fairly humid, but I try to keep my house at around 55%.
Are the various flours you've tried all the same brand? Have you tried other brands?
They were different brands, but probably all made from soft european wheat. I would love to try a flour made from American hard red wheat, as I feel it might absorp more of the water, but it's unfortunately very hard to come by here. I could get Manitoba flour, which I also haven't tried yet, but it's usually the tipo 00 kind meant for pizzas.
6.5 hours for 20% starter @77F is quite a long time. And you say 2 hours autolyse. Is the starter included in the autolyse?
I'd try...
The thing is, Abe, that he says he tried it, along with most everything else that seems sensible to try:
True, we don't know what variations he tried, and we don't know the humidity in his workspace. He also says he used a "15 hour cold proof" - I assume he means after shaping the loaf. The most important thing about that, I think, is how long did it proof at room temperature after the shaping.
Whether 6.5 hours was a long time for bulk at 77 deg F depends partly on how mature the starter was and whether the flour was malted. You probably know what "european organic strong white flour" means in terms of being malted, but I don't.
It seems to me that if the dough was way over-fermented that his loaf could never have looked as plump and had such an ear as the picture showed. If it had been so overfermented then it couldn't have developed that ear and those little blisters. It might still have been plump but it would have been much smoother.
Measuring a high internal temperature, like say 209 deg F, doesn't guarantee that enough moisture has been driven out, although at 70% hydration I wouldn't have thought there would have been that much water. That's why I was looking for a way that some water could have been bound more strongly, and dense parts of the dough as a result part of the shaping process was about the only thing I could come up with.
Humidity in my house is usually around 55%. The cold retard is directly after shaping, and I also bake straight from the fridge after those 15 hours. So no proofing at room temperature.
Because of trying to push bulk fermentation as much as possible, I have my fair share of overfermented loaves, but this is probably not one of them. Or at least, it is not what's causing the sticky crumb; the crumb of my under- and overfermented loaves, although very different in texture and structure, always seem to be equally as moist as of those that are fermented nicely. So it really feels like something is hindering the moisture to be driven out during baking.
Your using too much water. Simple really - it can change on ya depending on the other ingredients. Enjoy!
I've gone down to 55% hydration and unfortunately there was no major difference. I don't think my flour isn't able to absorp the water; the dough is actually still quite stiff at 70%. In fact, I prefer it at 80% as I feel it's easier to recognize the starter bringing structure to a slack dough than to a stiff dough.
It seems to me that several commenters haven't noticed that you have already tried the things they suggest. Must be frustrating!
One thing that hasn't come up, though, is the internal temperature in the middle of the loaf. I didn't think to mention it before, but in the circumstances I think you should really know what it is. Get a decent probe-style thermometer and stick that probe right into the loaf just after it comes out of the oven.
I would like to see temperatures of 208 deg F or preferably higher like 210. If you see, say, 198 or 202, you need to bake longer, perhaps at a lower temperature as I suggested in an earlier comment.
Just because the temperature is up there doesn't guarantee the loaf has cooked enough to drive off all the excess moisture. But if it's low, more baking is needed for sure.
TomP
Yes, I was still a little unsure about this; if the loaf actually reaches 210 internally. If leaving the bread in the oven after baking doesn't affect the crumb, I will buy a thermometer to check the internal temp. Thank you!
Leaving the loaf in the oven after it's basically been baked won't affect the crumb except to keep driving water out. Everything within reason, of course! If the crust seems to dry out too much (unlikely), cover it lightly with a sheet of aluminum (or "aluminium") foil.
"Just because the temperature is up there doesn't guarantee the loaf has cooked enough to drive off all the excess moisture."
I have learned to not only check the internal loaf temperature to check for doneness, but also pay attention to the probe itself. It may read 199f (the max I can get here at 6000 ft) but if the probe is pretty gummy after measuring, the loaf goes back in for another 5-10 min (depending on what kind of bread is in progress). It's pretty dry here so I try to avoid getting a completely dry probe (or the bread stales much sooner).
It's much the same as poking a toothpick into a cake to check for done-ness. A few crumbs just barely holding on is usually about right.
My sourdough bread, if its less than half a day old also has a sticky crumb that is moist to the touch and sticks to my knife when being sliced. Probably not as messy like yours but I've tried preslicing my loaves after 4 hours of cooling and the crumb was sticky and my knife dropped crumb balls, and also the crust flies everywhere too. I personally don't think it's a problem most of the time, but sometimes when I want to send loaves to somebody else, I might need to preslice them and the problem becomes an actual hurdle.
The only way I could see to solving this is to wait more so the moisture in the crumb and crust equalize. I've done this (overnight wait) and my crumb has become less wet and didn't stick to my knife at all, after that it gets toasted to revive the bread. I have also heard at a bakery (Proof Bread) that they let their bread cool 7-8 hours before slicing, so maybe try that. It's a long time but if you don't need to slice the bread instantly or need the bread to be as fresh as possible then it's a viable solution.
I could try and let it sit overnight and then toast it again as you mentioned, and it probably will work, but it doesn't explain why others can cut theirs after 2 hours and have a perfectly dry crumb. I'm probably more interested in finding out what's causing the issue in the first place, rather than figuring out a band-aid fix, if that makes sense. :-)
I think the main reason causing this in the first place is the moisture has hasn't equalized or staled fully within the crumb, resulting in a sticky crumb. Probably same reason why high percentage rye breads are cut one to a few days after baking because you risk having a very sticky/gummy crumb that would make a mess.
To be more clear, my bread doesn't really stick to my bread knife after 1-2 hours but if I stick it in my electric slicer even after 4-5 hours of cooling, for some reason it's very messy and the crust flies everywhere, hence why the problem is a bummer for me when I want to send some bread around. Crumb is still somewhat sticky which also hinders effective slicing, I feel the rotating blade kinda pulls and compresses the fresh bread too hard.
Yes, exactly. So I'm trying to find out why the moisture in your bread has already equalized after only 1-2 hours, and so your crumb doesn't stick to the breadknife, while my bread is still sticky after waiting 5. What's the humidity like at your place?
First, about your question about humidity where I live, its very humid where I live (coastal and tropical area). Usually in the daytime it starts at ~90% at sunrise before dipping to 60% at 1-2pm and then slowly climbs back up towards dusk and across the night to that 90% in dawn. When it's rainy season it gets extra humid sometimes.
But, one important thing I didn't mention is that most of the time, I'm impatient and put my bread in front of a fan to quickly cool it, which dries it out more. I didn't mention this earlier but this fact is pretty important. Probably also the reason why my bread's crust flies everywhere when I use my electric slicer because the crust is drier by the fan.
Yes, the fan would help cool nd dry out the crust but not do anything about drying out the interior. If it's that humid all the time, your flour probably starts out with more moisture than most US and European recipe writers are used to.
Yes, although I've never actually measured the humidity of my flour, the supplier I get my flour from states that it's 14% moisture. In 1kg sealed plastic bags that are opened for a moment and sealed, I think that is correct, but in the polypropylene sacks that I'm now getting flour in (much cheaper per kilo than the small 1kg packs), it is not airtight whatsoever. My flour that comes in these sacks actually feel damp to the touch, and also more clumpy than the sealed plastic bag flour.
That doesn't sound good. I've never had flour damp like that. But you wrote that you have tried many flours and got the gummy results from them all. Were they all similarly damp? When you were buying the flour in the 1kg bags were the loaves gummy?
If I may ask, what part of the world are you living in? Someplace warm and damp. obviously.
On first glance, with damp flour one could just use less water. But damp flour could degrade, and even start fermenting a little. Undesired organisms could start to grow. It's not the best thing, one way or another.
I am actually not the original poster, just to clarify. But the flour is relatively fresh (?) from the mill (I approximate it at ~1-2 months old after hitting the mill), and I haven't had any big hurdles with my bread. The mill is not far away from me so it probably faces a similar climate, but its a big mill so quality control is probably somewhat strict.
Interesting re Proof bread waiting 7-8 hours before slicing. I don't recall the hydration of their usual loaves, but Mesa, AZ environmental humidity is quite low.
If I recall correctly, in a video Jon from Proof Bread mentioned that his bread's hydration is low-mid 80%, I don't remember the exact number that he mentioned. The context in which Jon mentions it is when Sat Karam (Portuguese baker he befriended) brought up the fact that Sat Karam's bread (~75% hydration) was relatively dry to what Jon's bread.
I have no idea what is going on, but it looks like one thing you haven't tried is proofing the bread faster. You could try forgoing the fridge, or even putting the shaped loaf somewhere warm. I actually don't see how this could help, but it seems like you've tried everything!
Try making exactly the same recipe but use yeast instead.
I'd be curious to see how the crumb turns out.
to make sure you haven't got old flour.
Try 220°C for slightly longer bake.
Try a different knife. Does it gum up the slicer machine too?
I am new to Sourdough and don't have e enough personal experience to be useful but episode 7 of this podcast may shed some light if heat is the issue.
https://modernist-breadcrumbs.simplecast.com/episodes
Have you tried a different brand wheat flower?
I personally wouldn't mind it the way it is since I always toast my slices.
Your bread looks amazing inside and out.