Paesano Boule
Hello. New member here. Started baking in January of 2023 and have been hitting it hard. Round these parts it's impossible to find decent bread and I just got sick of buying the supermarket presliced "italian" bread. I'm in the burbs just north of NYC so I can go down to Arthur Ave but the traffic is a major burden and it's a bit far away.
I've been making what I call a paesano boule - a simple peasant bread - and was inspired to try my hand at bread after watching an IG video. I made the bread following the video but didn't like the non-existent soft crust. I then did a little bit o' research and have now incorporated using the dutch oven. I had to modify the recipe as well.
So the issue at hand is that I am registered as a home processor and want to scale up the production. Here in NY you cannot use any commercial equipment as a home processor. For example, if I wanted to even think about producing enough bread to show up to a farmer's market, I don't know how I would accomplish that without baking 30 hours straight before the market. Currently I only bake one loaf at a time in a Bluestar gas oven because the 9 quart dutch oven takes up a lot of space. My bread is just under 80% hydration and after final shaping and letting the dough rest for about 10 minutes it is still extremely soft and fluffy. I am now using King Arthur Special Patent (12.7% gluten) flour and a simple recipe of salt, sugar, instant yeast, and water.
I attempted to make bread the other day without the dutch oven. I made two loaves on two separate days. The first loaf came out with an extremely crispy crust. When I went to test it I actually punched a huge hole it was so crispy. The color was not great and was a bit on the dull side. You'll see the comparison of what it looks like via the dutch oven and without. I used a metal pan and poured some boiling water (maybe 2 cups) right after placing my dough on the sheetpan with parchment paper to try and get some steam action. Crumb was tasty and again I was stunned at how crispy the crust came out. The only problem is that it doesn't look as pretty as the dutch oven loaf.
I guess this site only allows you to post one picture in the main post. I'll have to make several posts then. First picture shows the first bread baked without a dutch oven. Super crispy crust, a bit of a weird muffin/mushroom shape to it, perhaps a bit underproofed.
Here's a pic of the first slice. I think the crumb came out real nice.
And here's a pic of it sliced up.
Here's a pic of bread made today with the dutch oven. As mentioned, much prettier.
2023-06-02 08.18.46.jpg
Is there any way to get the bread baked without the dutch oven to look like the bread baked with the dutch oven? Do I need more steam? Ice cubes in the pan? I'd like to be able to bake 2 loaves at once which would double my production rate. Perhaps my heat was set to high?
For the dutch oven I've been setting the dial on the oven to 450 but the temperature fluctuates wildly. It will get up past 500 and then drop down to 415. Not much I can do about that. I have a thermoworks square dot thermometer to monitor the actual temps. Should I try baking without the dutch oven at a higher temp?
The second loaf I made without the dutch oven I baked a bit longer than my typical 48 min (30 min cover, 18 uncovered in the dutch oven). and it came out with a super nice dark crust that had incredible flavor.
Here's a video of the first loaf made without a dutch oven. You can hear how crispy it is.
Also since switching to the KA Special Patent flour (enriched) I am pretty sure I am tasting better flavors with all else being equal. I was previously using retail KA Bread Flour (unenriched) which cost me almost double to purchase.
Hi,
You will probably need one baking stone, and having two is even better if you're not using a Dutch oven.
Yippee
Thank you for the suggestion. Will that help with the difference in the crust? I get that it may help with more even heat distribution but wouldn't that just affect the rise? Thanks.
I am certain that the oven temperature will drop drastically, which will affect the crust, after loading multiple doughs if there's no baking stone.
Some members here use baking steel instead of a stone. Perhaps you can also look into that as an alternative.
Yippee
Thanks I will have to do some more research and more test boules.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44141/red-fife-x-4-awesomeness-matching-my-work-schedule
Would using a Dutch oven of a different size be an option?
Yippee
P.S.
If you are interested in opening a "wee shop in the garage" like one of the commenters did, I hope this video will inspire you:
https://youtu.be/cr5AzzadEBs
My Bluestar RNB304BV1 oven dimensions:
Interior Width: 26 1/4"
Interior Depth: 20"
Interior Height: 15"
I could possibly use a 6 quart or 7.3 Amazon Basics dutch oven but I'm pretty sure for $43 (6 quart) it won't compare in quality to the $300 LeCreuset (which we almost never used before I started using it for bread). But maybe it will work.
The 6 quart Amazon DO is unfortunately 11" in diameter (not including the ears) so I won't be able to fit more than 4 total dutch ovens at once. But 4 at a time is better than 1 at a time, although it will require more preheating time and probably longer baking times which of course I won't know until I know.
The heigh is listed at 4.72" so I'm assuming that's all the way to the top of the knob. I'll have to wait until the oven cools in order to lower one rack all the way to the bottom and measure the space. The broiler does stick down (also gas) so that may be a problem.
I'm not too keen on changing the size of the loaf so if I can continue using the exact same ingredient list I'll consider it.
How do professional bakers achieve this kind of texture without a dutch oven? A combinatino of steam injection, high tech stable temp ovens, and baking stones? Is it unrealistic to assume that I can achieve it at home without a dutch oven?
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Enameled-Covered-Dutch-6-Quart/dp/B073Q9K2H3/
Thanks.
but I think deck ovens used in bakeries typically have baking stones or tiles as part of their design. The stones help to absorb and retain heat, creating a stable and hot baking environment.
Yippee
If I were you, I would try heating up the Dutch ovens on the stovetop. It might be much faster than doing it in the oven. Then load the dough and transfer them to the preheated oven.
Yippee
Not a bad idea. I will have to try that one day. Today I'm struggling with baking multiple loaves one after the other because I'd like to let them cool in the oven......if I'm going to be delivering it to be eaten right away......that way the crust doesn't soften up by the time the bread cools for say an hour. If the bread will be delivered say at 2pm and won't be eaten till dinner then it's no big deal since they can bring the loaf back to life by sticking it in a cold oven at 300 for 15 min. Crisps up the crust right away. Some people like a softer crust. Some people like a lighter crust. I like a nice crunchy, dark, flavorful crust......
That said most of today's loaves will not be eaten right away. Trying to nail down the timing too in terms of preparing the next dough and not having it overproof.
is one of the shortcuts to success, in my opinion. Both Dave and Lazy Loafer are micro bakery owners. Check out their posts/blog to see if you can find helpful information there. Make sure to read the discussions in the comments, too.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/lazy-loafer
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/61098/track
Good luck!
Yippee
P.S.
And Gordon's blog, too
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/drogon
Thank you for the links I will sift through them. I am very much a monkey see monkey do learner.
If so, yes, it will be a challenge to maintain a steamy environment for the first part of the bake due to the oven's need to exhaust the combustion gases.
Dutch ovens, or roasters, or other covered oven-proof containers all offer one way to keep moisture around the loaf for the first few minutes of the bake.
Another approach is to bake the loaves on oven stones or steel, using something to cover them. The cover could be as simple as a foil roaster, or a hotel pan, or anything else that will confine the moisture coming from the loaf until oven spring is complete. Then the cover can be removed for the remainder of the bake. This approach might give you somewhat more efficient use of space than containers like DOs, while the stone or steel will help even out some of the temperature swings.
I can see some further experimenting in your future to figure out the best fit for your needs.
Paul
Yes it is a gas oven so it has to vent the combustion gasses indeed. I will do some measuring and experimentation for sure. I could use mixing bowls to trap the steam, perhaps chuck an ice cube under there, but with 80% hydration I think the dough will have enough moisture to steam itself. I have experimented with spraying and not spraying after loading into the DO and haven't really found that much of a difference. Thank you for the suggestions.
Interesting setup! However, I can't use any commercial equipment in NYS as a home processor and I wouldn't be allowed to use my garage because I have too much crap in there already that would have no home otherwise. Also NYS cottage food laws prevent home pickup. I.e. I have to deliver, pre-packaged, labeled, etc.
Perhaps setting up a shop in your garage will give you the nudge to declutter and organize your space.😄😄😄
Yippee
It's a matter of adhd/ocd and who knows what else. I have a lot of projects. Hahahaha. And yes, I do cleanup all the time and throw things out or give them away. But the garage is so small I can barely fit my Mini Cooper in it - I did that once when we moved in and said forget that!
Today's 5th loaf. A little bit of burstage due to mw cranking up the heat and rushing the preheat of the Dutch oven I'm guessing. I made this dough at 6:25 am and took it out at 3:40pm, about an hour later than I wanted to.
Baked two loaves to test today. I overproofed them I think. Crumb was a bit dense, still tasty, and I underbaked the loaves. I used a large aluminum sheet pan and a cast iron skillet, preheated to 450 for 45 min, then put the two doughs in on top of wax paper. Promptly poured cold water into the skillet (probably 2 cups) and baked for 45 minutes. Definitely not long enough but I was super stoked that they had nice oven spring, nice ear development, and overall I'm happy with the test. I just need to figure out exactly how long and also what temp. I may be able to fit 4 loaves in there if I put the cast iron on the bottom of the oven. Is that frowned upon or is it ok? That would give me the space to use both racks and leave enough room for oven spring.
Here's the nice ear development, the bigger ear.
And here for comparison are some pics of the loaf I baked earlier for a customer in the dutch oven.