Medium vs Whole/Dark Rye Flour
Most of the recipes in "The Rye Baker" and the rye recipes in "Bread" call for medium rye; a few use whole or dark rye or pumpernickel (coarsely milled whole rye).
Just for fun (and because I had bought a lot of Great River Milling Dark Rye (which they describe as whole) I used dark rather than KA Organic Rye (a medium rye) in a 100% rye sourdough from the CIA Baking and Pastry textbook. BTW, my sourdough culture is the Great River Milling Dark Rye.
I was surprised by a couple of things:
- The dark rye did not need more water than medium rye, at least for incorporation. It's possible that the dark rye could have handled/benefited from higher hydration, but I did not need any more water to mix the dough
- The crumb color and flavor was pretty much the same as with medium rye
The dark rye probably resulted in a lower volume, But I can't say for sure because of other factors; I have not baked the two versions side-by-side, with otherwise identical recipes.
I would like to hear about your experiences with dark vs medium rye, especially if there are some recipes that favor one or the other, and what adjustments if any you make when you switch.
Thanks
For what different grades of rye mean. I’ve read that medium and whole grain are generally substitutable (though not the same) which aligns with your experience. Some flours labeled “dark rye” are whole grain and others contain more of the outer layer and the bran, which differentiates them more sharply from medium rye.
Sources:
http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/
https://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/grain-month-calendar/rye-triticale-august-grains-month/types-rye
And for confirming my observation; those two products are pretty similar despite the names. I guess if we are buying consumer-size quantities of flour we might or might not get the full specifications. And even if we do, you have to have a lot of experience to interpret the numbers.
I think I've written this before on another thread -- so apologies in advance:
I've found that everything that calls for light or medium rye can be baked with whole rye with almost no changes. Sometimes I add a little more water ... mostly unofficially, by wetting my hands as I knead ... but sometimes not. I generally let the feel of the dough determine things.
The loaves I have baked are most likely denser than the originals. But I'm not baking to recreate something for a bread museum but rather to eat -- and most of the ryes I've pulled from the oven make for great eating. Indeed, the biggest challenge is cultivating the patience to let them sit before slicing.
Rob
Agree in general, but for light/white rye - the flavour will be drastically different! Like with whole wheat vs AP/bread flour, the white counterpart has very little of the original grain flavour.
serious question, Ilya: why would anyone want reduced-flavor rye?
I was wondering the same until I tried a couple of recipes with white rye. It really lets the flavour of other additions shine (spices, for example), and of course the texture is quite different, softer, more similar to wheat bread I would say. If you can get white rye, it's very interesting to try using it!
I have made/posted two bakes here, one for Riga rye (famous white rye with caraway seeds, this one was with CLAS https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68689/riga-bread-scalded-white-rye-caraway-seeds-using-clas) and a "Swedish" (but in a Russian interpretation) bread, a very unusual nowadays recipe (https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67436/swedish-rye-bread-1912-recipe). Both worth making!
I was planning to make the latter again, I even have a bag of light rye sitting in the back, and brought some bitter orange peel from my trip to Sweden in May... Next year!
http://theryebaker.com/holstein-fine-ryeholsteinisches-feinbrot-germany/
I wasn’t expecting to like it as much as I did. The milk flavor is really nice.
Buckwheat, white rye, and milk - such an interesting recipe! Thank you for sharing.
Ah and I think your point applies much more to medium rye, since bread made with it still tastes very similar to whole rye, and the texture is also quite similar. It does get a little more airy I think though.
But white rye is really quite different (whether you prefer it or not is a different question :)).
I knew you'd have the answer!
I'd love to try the recipes you've linked to, but I'm afraid the imported light/white rye I can get at local Polish groceries isn't particularly fresh. I've been bugged recently by rye flour that is well-within-date but lackluster or stale nonetheless. I have found that my breads come out way way better when I use coarsely ground whole rye from a small upstate NY miller with good regional distribution. For me, sadly, light rye baking will have to wait till I spend some time in a real rye culture.
That's annoying! I would say chances are that white rye will be fine though - as white flour, it should stay fresh much longer (much less oils etc to oxidize and get rancid). Same as with wheat, AP/bread flour stays fine for a really long time, while whole grain flour develops bitter flavour with time.
Alternatively, is it possible your local miller also produces white rye, it just doesn't reach your shelves? You could get in touch with them and ask. Back in Edinburgh I got in touch with a local mill whose bread flour I was using and found a way to get their rye flour (they brought it to to a shop near me, and surprisingly that shop kept stocking it after that!).
I have used three different types of rye flour:
I did not see a lot of difference in behavior between the two medium ryes. The Breadtopia and CLNF whole ryes also appear interchangeable. It's been a couple of years since I used BRM rye that I can't remember what it was like. I have interchanged medium with whole rye a few times and have not noticed a lot of difference there, either.
Now we get to the fun stuff. The BSM dark rye really is a different beast; it is most similar to Austrian Type 2500 rye flour (Schwarzroggenmehl). If you poke around the German or Austrian bread sites, you will find it used in some recipes. It is generally recommended on those sites that ≈20% of the rye can be replaced with T2500 dark rye flour. I can attest that its behavior is different than whole rye. It does absorb a lot more water than whole rye.
Here is one recipe (Schwarzroggen-kruste) that uses 35% T2500 in a mixed wheat-rye bread (note the additional water used in the sourdough sponge). This bread was delicious! It had a very pronounced rye flavor despite only 35% rye.
I have also pushed my luck and used 35% T2500 rye flour in a pan loaf with 35% other rye (medium rye flour and fine rye meal) and high-gluten bread flour.
Pumpernickel flour is most like fine rye meal (Roggenschrot fein) or possibly approaching medium rye meal (Roggenschrot mittel) in coarseness. Coarse rye meal (Roggenschrot grob) is very different. It looks like whole rye berries that have been slightly crushed with a roller. I have used all three meals purchased from NYBakers.
Now that NYBakers is no longer operated by Stanley Ginsberg, it will be difficult to replicate the Roggenschrot grob and T2500 rye flour. Bakers Authority might have the Bay State Milling products and I did find a source for coarse rye meal on a Dutch foods website (link) but I haven't ordered any yet. Most other rye meal/rye chops I have purchased are not really the same.
With the general consensus here. I use freshly ground for all my rye bread. I've used Light rye and medium rye but found that I prefer the flavor of the whole grain. I never really saw much difference in how the bread baked, subbing one for the other. I bought some sprouted whole rye flour that I replace up to a third of my flour for and only noticed a softer crumb and smoother flavor.
Medium can mean anything, including whole rye.