December 11, 2022 - 4:09pm
Dough Temp vs Wet Loaf
Hi,
I am a relatively new bread baker coming from the pizza world. If my sourdough loaf was baked to 207 F in the center shouldn't it be finished? It was very wet yet in the center. Should it be baked to say 212F? It was fermented to 100% and then about 8 hours in the fridge before baking.
Thanks,
Azcal
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Knowing very little about your methods etc. it's hard to say what up. Give as much info as possible. Enjoy!
Hi Azcal!
There was a good discussion of that question here:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67186/using-thermometers-test-bread-doneness
the answer to your question "Should it be baked to 212F?" is 'Not just to 212F, but much longer than that!', Of course, it depends on the kind of bread (pan breads, hearth breads, crusty or soft crusted) and the kind of dough (wet, medium, stiff). But overall, for medium to wet dough, hearth breads, the answer is to track other factors, not just internal temp.
My own empirical evidence does not always agree with Hamelman's description.
When I bake a 100% whole grain loaf (à la Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads), I find that the internal temperature consistently does not reach the final desired temperature 2/3 through the bake. It is usually 10–15 °C below the final temperature of 92–96 °C at ≈75–85% of the bake time. The temperature then rapidly climbs to the final temp. in the last 5–10 min of the bake. Is that because it is whole grain and not white flour?
I also wonder in the experiment that Hamelman describes that because the temperature probe was left in the dough that it allowed hot oven air to seep into the puncture and raise the temperature prematurely. I would be curious to repeat the experiment by removing the loaf and measuring it multiple times in separate locations of the loaf each time,
You know, Hamelman wrote his piece only to show that he never tracks internal temperature but if he did then his loaves would reach max T 2/3 into the bake.
I watched one of his shows during covid-19 pandemic where he took out a prefectly baked hearth loaf out of the oven, tapped it, weighed it in his hand, sniffed it, judged its already dark crust color and decided it needed some 10 more minutes of baking time! I was horrified. I felt he was sending that poor loaf to certain death, to be burned! But no, it ended up being just fine. It's his personal preference, to bake his lean hearth breads that long.
And you are reporting that for your level of preferred doneness the dynamic is different.
I usually like my sandwich loaves and challah slightly underbaked and the rest of breads just baked, not more. It's because I like very thin crispy crusts. But some recipes require prolonged baking, long after both crust and crumb are "done", those breads lose a lot of weight in the oven, not just the minimal 8-10%, but 25% and even 50%. I.e. instead of balking them for 25-30 min, you would let them sit in the oven for 50 or even 60 min.
I rately bake those, but those breads are indeed special. They taste differently. Maybe Hamelman likes those the most, who knows.
Length of baking is like everything else in bread, a variable that creates a new variety of bread. Technically, dough-crumb transition, i.e. crumb setting, starts at 85C, so the bread can be taken out of the oven once its internal T reaches that number, and it will finish baking outside the oven, but there is more to bread quality than its crumb not being visibly raw inside.
When I was a kid in Middle school, we had a fun experiment in my physics class. The teacher folded a sheet of paper into a cup, then used it to boil water over a flame.
The starches (and proteins) in Wheat flour start to gelatinize around 170°F (75°C). The internal temperature of the dough can't rise above 212F (100C) until all the water is gone. If your internal temperature went much over 212F (100C) you wouldn't have bread; you'd have a cracker.
It is the setting of the gelatinized wheat flour that sets and makes the crumb of the bread.
How long you cook it after the dough has been set determines how "done" it is.
Wow! Thanks for all the insightful information. So time is as important as temperature.
The recipe was from KA here: https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pain-de-campagne-recipe. The hydration was reduced to 75%.
But there is a simply rule of thumb: just ensure your internal loaf temperature is 95C/203F or just over. Your bread will be fully cooked; If you want it darker, cook it longer. Simple as that.
I'd look elsewhere for the source of your problem. The bulk time in that recipe is very long at 12 hours (balanced by a relatively low temperature). Perhaps try a more conventional recipe with a warmer, shorter bulk and aim for a 50% rise in bulk.
Also you don't say what flour you are using and what about your water?
Lance
Albacore, The recipe is interesting because of its flexibility in using unripe starter (fed within a week) and flexibility in the timing of when you bake. I used filtered room temp water, 71-72F and KA Bread Flour.
Flour sounds good. Just check you have some calcium ions in your water: depending on your filter, it might be taking them out (assuming you have some there to start with).
You need min 40ppm calcium ion to give good dough properties. Try suitable bottled water or add calcium carbonate at 0.1gpl.
Lance
fwiw, when i've made loaves with 100% KA bread flour, i found them gummy. i think it is higher in protein than most other US bread flours -- nearly 13%, compared to, e.g., 11.5% for Central Milling's bread flour. not sure if my "gummy" is the same as your "wet in the middle", but in addition to the other good advice you've gotten here, you could try replacing some of the bread flour with AP flour (~25% to start?). that recipe also calls for 10% whole wheat flour, which i'm not sure if you included.
i've never measured the internal temp of my loaves, so can't help with that.
hope this helps,
c
Between KA bread flour and all purpose. The BF by itself makes a stiffer heavier crumb with more lift than the AP flour which has a lighter more delicate texture. I have been working with the same recipe as you lately and it’s interesting that the original blog about it recommended using AP at 80% hydration. I use a combination of both flours quite often and only go full BF for loaves with add ins like nuts, seeds, fruit, porridge etc. where a stronger gluten structure is helpful.
Don
Albacore,
I will check the water more closely if extended bake times don't seem to get it done. Thanks
UVCat and MTLoaf,
Interesting info on the flour differences. AP Flour next time it is!
Thanks,