June 11, 2022 - 10:16am
When does the flour brand matter?
Since different brands of flour have different amounts of protein, when does the specific brand matter?
In rose levy beranbaum's books, some of her recipes call for gold medal bread flour or half all purpose and half sone other brand of bread flour to get a similar amount of protein.
This is what originally got me curious about the specific brand.
So when is it fine to use any brand, and when is it a good idea to use a specific one?
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It's a good question Shirley!
According to RLB not even sticking to the brand that she recommends in her book(s) will give consistently good results. She discovered it in pandemic when her favorite GoldMedal flour quality sudddenly plummeted and she had to switch to the commercial bread flour to obtain the same quality in home baked bread.
https://www.realbakingwithrose.com/blog/2021/10/16/the-importance-of-being-bread-flour-earnest
Basically, her answer to your question is "for as long as you are happy with your bread quality, any other flour/brand will do".
Personally, I do not bake using her recipes precisely because in Canada we do not have those US flours she mentions in her books, so I have no way of knowing just how good the intended bread should be in order to replicate it with other flours.
Other bread books authors are not as specific, they just mention bread flour or all purpose flour and that is good enough. I find that approach works better in baking and cooking.
Protein% is irrelevant, what matters is designation. 10%protein flour, 11%protein flour and 12%protein flour would give equally awesome bread using the same recipe for as long as those three flours are bread flours.
What makes a flour a 'bread' flour if it's not protein %?
http://www.theartisan.net/Flours_One.htm
for a tutorial.
Those W and P/L numbers are hidden in the US, but EU flour companies tend to use them, especially the W.
See:
https://www.mulinocaputo.it/art-of-baking/?lang=en
https://www.mulinocaputo.it/linea-cucina/?lang=en
https://www.grandsmoulinsdeparis.com/produits/farines.html
Then click on each product to see the specifications. At the French one, you may have to drill down to a PDF file.
The term 'bread flour' is not used there much and the only reference to is is that it's milled from hard wheat vs soft. But (simplifying) the difference between hard wheat and soft is... protein content so that circles back to my question. Bread flour seems to simply be whole wheat flour milled from hard wheat and sifted to remove some percentage of the bran.
I'm also coming at this from a US perspective, so the European stuff is just different since the wheats vary, as I understand it.
W, which is strength, the ability to stand up to fermentation and kneading; and P/L, which is elasticity and exensibility, the ability to stretch somewhat but still hold in gasses, determine suitability for bread.
Protein %, as used in the US, is only a correlate to those two because of the main types of wheat grown here.
EU flour has a "difterent correlation" between protein % and the W and P/L numbers, because they have different wheat varieties, different climate, and different soil.
Custom flour "blending" for every batch in a big commercial mill also plays a part. Wheat varies field to field and year to year. The boffins at those big mills spend a lot of time blending, measuring W and P/L, adjusting the blend, etc.
Therefore, in the US, the focus on protein "sort of works", in terms of suitability for bread, but in the EU it does not, therefore they focus (and rightly so) on the W and P/L numbers.
As "boutique wheat" in the US moves towards more heirloom varieties, and away from the "big agra" hybrid varieties, we are starting to see the correlation of "bread wheat = high protein" slowly erode.
To move past this almost "forced" coincidence of correlation, one needs to study what W and P and L are. Just because they are not advertised in the US does not mean they don't exist. They are just as real for US flour as for EU flour.
I admit, this is super technical and geeky. But it explains why you can't directly use US recipes with EU flour and get the same results as with US flour.
I had to read that artisan.net treatise on flour about 5 times before it sank in.
But you asked the question, and I gave you "a" correct answer. Mariana is a good explainer, and hopefully she will fill in the gaps, correct my mistakes, and 'splain it better.
Thank for the detailed explanation. Interesting stuff. I wonder if US mills use the details you outlined or if they just are classifying by protein level.
are common in bread/flour labs. I saw some for sale when a bread/flour science teaching lab closed down.
They essentially have to use lab equipment to make sure that bag of Gold Medal flour or King Arthur flour _performs_ in the kitchen the same way year after year.
And if the protein is the same, but actual real-life kitchen performance changes, then tens of thousands of home bakers complain.
Looks like, according Rose, that the pandemic got the wheat supply chain out of balance, and the big players put their commercial clients first, as they should, and the retail channel got the flour that was short of some critical wheat varieties for blending purposes.
I have to say, I think the W and P/L are only commonly reported for Italian flours, not all of the EU/Europe (all countries have different milling and baking traditions). Commonly however in Europe flour is graded based on ash content (i.e. how white or whole grain it is), in France, Germany, Austria it is reported as a specific number, such as type 550 has ~0.55% ash. But the "strength" is not reported as a specific number.
Good explanation Dave. As far as I know, the W index is only widely published for Italian flours. I have hardly ever seen it quoted for British, French, German or any other country's flour.
This is a great shame, as knowing the W index for the flours we bakers use would make life a lot easier.
I often wonder if all big mills actually perform the test, but don't make the results public. I've seen full spec sheets for a few British produced flours and the W index is never mentioned. Probably we home bakers should get onto our suppliers and start requesting them to provide the info.
For the strong, here is more info on how W is measured (in Italian):
https://www.mulinopadano.it/blog/approfondimenti/w-farina/
Lance
Historically and regionally the answer to that question would differ, Clevins, but in the US and Canada today, for a home baker, it essentially means that the flour is suitable for the bread machine (yeasted) bread baking, including the short cycle, no-time breads which require half an hour of intense kneading and almost zero bulk fermentation time.
In commercial setting, the requirement is close, but a bit different. Bread flours definitely should be able to withstand machine handling and the rigors of yeasted and sourdough fermentation.
Behind the scenes is the ability of the bread flour to form massive amounts of gluten quickly upon moistening flour with liquids and good quality of that gluten, its strength, stretchiness and elasticity, its fermentation tolerance, and, of course, its color and taste/aroma. Cake and pastry flour or pasta flour might have the same %protein, for example but the amount of gluten they form and the quality of gluten would be vastly different and the resulting bread dough quality would be unacceptable and bread would be inedible.
You can't assume home bakers use bread machines. There are a lot of home bakers who make various kinds of artisan breads both yeasted and SD and never use a bread machine (though they may well use a mixer).
In the US at least, you can walk into any supermarket and see AP flour, bread flour and various whole wheat flours. As far as I can tell, the bread flour is sifted, higher protein flour (closer to 13-14% vs the 11% or so of AP) from hard wheats.
So this gets back to the question - when a flour is marked as 'bread flour' is there a common definition of that that goes beyond protein content, extraction and wheat variety? It seems not, to me.
Sure, bread machines have nothing to do with this. Flour quality does. Modern bread flour is able to withstand the whole range of treatments, from old fashioned to modern, that was my point. From no knead and hand kneading to intense machine kneading, from no time straight dough to slow and multistage fermentation schedules that can last hours and even several days, from panned breads to free form hearth breads, etc.
In Canada, there is no such thing as bread flour in supermarkets. Some stores offer so called bread machine flours and so called best for bread flours, but nothing like bread flours offered to the commercial bakeries. Canadian supermarket all purpose flours of any ash content, including whole wheat, are de facto bread flours, but not so in the US. In the US some supermarket brands APFs are too delicate and weak or not tasty enough to be used in yeasted bread baking.
That is why RLB was so specific in her books when she was indicating both brands and flour designation in her recipes. Because the US retail flour market is not regulated in that sense, although by now you noticed that at least in your state APF means about 11%protein white flour (in other states it is much lower or higher), bread flour means about 13% protein white unbleached flour, etc.
So, protein content, extraction rate and wheat variety are not what defines bread flour. Take the best bread wheat kernels with good protein content, mill them at home and you will have the worst bread flour ever, whether sifted or not, it does not matter. Why? Because bread flour is aged flour, among other things. Freshly milled one can be successfully used in some breads, but not in all breads.
Bread flours can have wide range of protein content, be of any extraction rate, milled from soft and hard, winter or spring wheat, but their functional properties are those as described above. Yes, they are captured by certain numbers that characterise their physical, chemical and biological properties, a whole bunch of them, but most importantly, they are revealed by baking tests. Bread flours reliably make superior yeast leavened breads even from no time dough, even in a bread machine.
past one another to a degree. I admit my perspective here is US centric, but as i mentioned, here there is an entire category of flours specifically labeled as bread flour. As far as I can tell, the only visible differentiation is higher protein and hard wheat as the variety used.
Saying 'bread flour is flour that makes good bread' while true, is circular, so...
I think I'll email the mill that I buy from and see how they define it. Oddly, even a large but still serious outfit like King Arthur doesn't offer what they mean by the term.
Maybe it sounds circular, but flours are subjected to standard bread baking tests as a measure of the flour quaIty. A miller cannot sell something as bread flour without first subjecting that flour to standard baking tests using standard industry recipes to be sure it makes bread as advertised.
Flours are subjected to dozens of tests, some are simply checking out their chemistry (protein%, ash%, toxicity) or microbiology, others verify their performance inside the dough (gluten%, W,,P,L,falling number, etc,), finally, some tests verify their performance in the oven, baking tests, and after - bread staling tests, how fast the bread baked with that flour develops mold, rope disease or other bread diseases, etc.
Central Milling is a US compamy, their best selling bread flour is 11%protein. To get to that level they artificially lower hard wheat high protein by blending it with low protein wheats. While the resulting flour is higher in protein than European bread flours with their 9.5-10.5% protein, it is not exorbitantly high.
https://centralmilling.com/product/malted-artisan-bread-flour-organic-artisan-bakers-craft-plus/
Clevins said: "So this gets back to the question - when a flour is marked as 'bread flour' is there a common definition of that that goes beyond protein content, extraction and wheat variety? It seems not, to me." Here in Spain that is certainly true. I guess here they have a bit more flexibility when they say "fuerte - strong" flour, as opposed to "bread" flour. You can after all use bread flour for more things than bread.
From all the fascinating and informative info above I offer my thanks as I now understand a lot more as to why my flour is marked: W:302 p/l :0,65 Protein 1576 Califa Wheat
I conclude that having found a source of several good flours, my task is to make the best of them. To look for recipes that suit my flour, as opposed to flours that suit my recipes. If nothing else it makes me feel good using a local supplier. Off now for todays bake. Cheers
Seeing it on the bag (or even on the website of the miller) would be great. #littlejealous
"when a flour is marked as 'bread flour' is there a common definition of that that goes beyond protein content, extraction and wheat variety?"
There's the rub. When it is just a _word_ and not a measureable _specification_, it means whatever the marketer wants it to mean.
"Words on a package"... that's all it is. And who comes up with those words? Marketing weasels. (Can you tell that I'm a Dilbert fan?)
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Perhaps the correlation between flour "strength" and protein % in the US is not so coincidental. Look at all the variations in protein % among the General Mills commercial flours, at:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62291/experience-w-general-mills-50-lb-flour
Just look at all the protein %: 11.1, 11.3, 12.0, 12.6, 13.6, and 14.2. I left out the ones under 11%. And those are only the unbleached and unbromated ones. Most of those come in bleached+bromated versions, and combos thereof, which also changes the handling (rheological) properties.
So the retail grocery store flour is just a tiny tiny fraction of what General Mills makes. There are over 80 different flours on their flour main page.
Maybe they _plan_ the blending process that way, so that they intentionally end up with a system of flours such that strength is proportional to protein percent. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
Yeah, I think in the US "Bread flour" is just a term for high protein, hard wheat with some extraction. Some quick searches for government definitions seem to indicate that. Since I buy from smaller and local mills I'm going to email them to see if they have data on their own flours but those obviously wouldn't apply generally.
I live in the US, so I buy ordinary store flour that we have here.
When I see "Bread Flour" on a label, the only thing I assume is that it has a protein content higher than the same brand's All Purpose Flour. If that same brand has a "High Gluten Flour", then I assume that it has a protein content even higher than that same brand's bread flour. Right or wrong, that is how I interpret it.
I do NOT assume any particular protein percentage. One brand's bread flour may have a lower protein content than another brand's all purpose flour.
I do NOT assume any other properties of the flour - kind of wheat, bromated or not, bleached or not, etc.
(These days, I use First Street brand flour, which is the Smart and Final store house brand. It is the least expensive white flour I have found in our area. It comes in All Purpose, Bread, and High Gluten flours.)