March 10, 2022 - 6:12am
Naturally Soured Bread at 90F
Having watched this eye-opening video (9:16-26:40) I decided to give it a go making 'sourwort' at the lower temperature of 90F instead of my usual 110F.
Sourwort Specs
500g water; 150g cracked rye malt; 3.8g (1tsp) ACV5%
Souring Temp 90F; Time 38 hours; Anaerobic (CO2 purged)
In comparison, the 90F-sour came out still with the characteristic sour apples smell and taste but more mellow this time, though still as acidic. Under this finding I think it becomes more practical to use lower souring temps. The sourbread you see in the photos was bulk and proof fermented at the same temp (90F) throughout. It went real fast, you have to be on your toes!
Savvas
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Thanks for posting! I find this all very interesting.
Mariana calls that a flourless SD starter. Apparently the temperature range governs which types survive. She suggests adding some flour or fruit as a source of yeast. I want to try that.
gb
I see, this is different because of the lack of oxygen also. I missed that.
As read in your link, all sorts of adventurous and interesting avenues to walk are opening up when dealing with microbes. Surely worth trying.
I personaly like minimal aproaches in life and this has always been my torch light.
“Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert Einstein
I'm a physicist after all :)))
It is great to see you take your sourwort brewing experimentation to the next level with some interesting results. Did you capture yeast at 90 F? I have been brewing my mash at around 82 F without lid and I keep getting a layer of white/gray stuff (mold?) on top, I will be trying again this weekend in an evacuated jar like we did at 110 F to see if it makes a difference. Your bread looks great as always. Thanks.
My 90F sour came out with no signs of yeast activity whatsoever, very clear, identical to the 110F version. But again I'm very strict with O2 exclusion. I can only guess that the latter is the culprit for the layer you see on your brew.
My 82 F mash was intended to capture yeast, which it did capture some, but that top layer of stuff scared me a little, so I had to scrap it twice already and tried again the third time with everything sanitized but I am still getting it.
Oh I see. I had not realised you are trying two things at the same time (i.e, develop yeast and souring) if I understood well. Seems like a soured-yeast-water blend you are after? I cannot comment on that (lack of experience).
However, you give me the opportunity to say that I cannot grasp this wild-yeast-mania amongst many. I have relegated the role of yeast ever since I aborted my 10-year-old sourdough starter. On the other hand, I rely more and more on the bacteria side to offer all the 'goodness' one seeks in a bread. And also wild yeast is ever so weak, slow and temperamental (it's like waiting for King Khufu to speak back to you :)! ). There is a race horse breed to inflate the dough named baker's yeast. Cheap, reliable, efficient. Why should I bother with the inflating agent?
I cannot stress enough though that the above reflects only and only my personal amateur thoughts on the matter. There are many-many experts/professionals out there, who know much better than me.
Oh, believe me we are on the same boat as far as instant yeast vs. wild yeast. It only took me about 5 months (I created it in Oct last year) to realize that instant yeast works better for my baking needs, the reason I throw my SD starter away a couple of weeks back. That is the reason I was so attracted to the sourwort that you introduced to us, as it would be a perfect option (option may not need it) to add some natural sourness to my bread as needed. I am a sourwort fan for life, so no question there. Now as far as trying to capture some wild yeast in sourwort, that was just for fun to satisfy my curiosity regardless of whether I will use it as a leavening agent or not.
I nearly always add some IDY to my bakes for lift. I like having somewhat independent control of fermentation and rise that I can't get with SD alone.
But there is a component of flavor that is missing with the sourwort + IDY combination. I don't have adequate vocabulary to describe what is missing; the descriptive terms they use on coffee, wine and cheeses mean nothing to me.
I recently made a RYW + sourwort + IDY loaf that tasted pretty great.
My point is the wild yeast is bringing much more to the party than inflation.
Yeah, I think we are on the same boat too with regards to wanting to have some independent control over a dough's rise and taste.
As for the flavors of my sourdough bread, based on my 5-month young SD starter, it just gave me the sourness and the saltiness in the crumb while masking all other natural grain flavors. If that saltiness in crumb is what people refer to as the rich taste of sourdough, then I think I can live without it. Again, my 5-month SD starter might not be as rich in flavor as other more mature starters would have so if that was the case then my judgment of it would be pre-mature. One good case I had was I heard about the sweetness and butterness of Kamut so I decided to try it out, but I was not able to taste these flavors as described by others. I later discovered that my SD starter was masking these natural grain flavors, and as soon as I switched over to using instant yeast I was able to taste the Kamut for the first time, I almost cried from that incident. Nonetheless, just like any other things in life we all have preferences and that is what makes us human.
I've never noticed what I would call saltiness in my loaves. I get varying amounts of what I would call "tang" of the yogurty sort. I've read that this yogurty tang is the lactic acid, so I assumed the sourwort would produce a strong yogurty tang but I get none at all.
That baffles me. Any idea why this lactic acid addition doesn't produce that yogurty sour?
I did not get a yogurty tang with my sourdough bread, all I got was the sourness that hit right away upon the first bite. In fact, that sourness aroma would emit from the oven as baked, so I was able to smell the sourness before I could taste it.
On the other hand for my sourwort bread, I have not noticed a sour tang, I was able to deter a very mild sourness after chewing it for a while, that is the reason I like sourwort so much because it is so mild in sourness. If you are looking for a strong sour tang then perhaps sourwort is not a right ingredient for your bread. When Savvas introduced sourwort to us, I remember it was intended to be a bread conditioner, not as a sourdough alternative.
Sounds like your starter was very much on the acetic side (either the bacteria you captured, or the maintenance promoted that). And it does seem like most people wouldn't like that, you are not alone. Unless I do something wrong, I never get a strong sour taste from bread made with regular SD - only after chewing and thinking about it I notice some tang.
Indeed, I wish the sourness of my sourdough bread was a lot milder. How did I get to be that lucky to have such sour SD starter? Other bakers like Gary who wanted a really sour bread but did not get it. I did not do anything special to my SD starter, I fed it once a day, it was tripling daily, so it was never stored in the fridge and was never hungry for more than a few hours in my kitchen. Nonetheless, there is no going back now that I have sourwort to bake with. Thanks.
I agree that I don't want an extra-sour flavor on every SD load, but I haven't been able to obtain a San Francisco-style SD yet. The flavor should be sour, but not dominated by acetic acid. It should be dominated by lactic acid (≈3:1 lactic/acetic acid in final bread; see here).
Do you have any thoughts about how to obtain that high acidity without degrading the gluten? I even tried a loaf based on an online course I took with no luck.
Thanks!
I don't know about SFSD, never tried that. And not degrading the gluten with high acid load is tough. To shift towards lactic acid you can try higher temperature fermentation, or a liquid starter... The Bread Code on youtube made a few videos using a liquid (500% hydration) starter and claims it gives a very lactic flavour, and more sour, perhaps. Or something like sourwort/FLAS or CLAS? They themselves have way more lactic acid than you want, but the production of acid will shift to more "normal" in the main dough, so perhaps it'll help with what you are looking for? Just some ideas, I don't know what you have tried already, and what exactly it is you are looking for... All breads that I made that were noticeably sour were overfermented and gluten was definitely affected. So can't recommend anything from experience.
Thanks for the info. I'll check out the Bread Code videos.
One of the reasons I haven't tried CLAS/FLAS/sourwort yet is that I haven't seen any comments that the bread was too sour. Most users say that the bread has a mild sour or no sour at all.
Yes, but you can try increasing the amount I guess...
Hi,
I made a dough where all the liquid was flas (= Malt KMKZ) and it was sour but I didn't like it.
I have had luck with low inoculation (2%) and long warm (90F) ferments. I dealt with the gluten degradation issue by doing the long ferment on half the total flour as a preferment. When mixing the final dough I add yeast to get a good rise.
I can get a pretty good lactic sour with that combination,
I was hopeful that the lactic acid in the sourwort would do the job but I taste very little sour in the resulting loaf at 30% sourwort. I have not yet tried going higher.
Thanks for the ideas. I will have to try something like that. I had been thinking that a long "over-fermented" pre-ferment might be the way to go.
I have been following these CLAS/FLAS/sourwort threads hoping that someone will mention their use in an extra-sour SFSD-style bread. But it seems that the sour flavor is elusive.
It probably does. The subject is very complicated since we are dealing with live organisms and the factor of chance enters the equation in an annoying way. What are the species/strains in a home starter? Can one give instructions to his neighbor to create a sourdough starter that tastes as good as his? I think the answer is no. If someone is lucky to having a yeast culture that offers him good taste and lift then keep baking and enjoying. The whole idea is to make things more controlable and reproducible with no compromise in taste. Imho bacteria are more inclined towards this.
Hi gb, nice talking to you again.
Reasonable chance it was this…
https://fermentools.com/what-is-kahm-yeast-is-it-safe/
Oh gost that must be it. Dang, I wasted almost two weeks and some mash as a result of this weird yeast forming on the top which I thought was no good. I will try to take some pics tonight so you guys can see it. Thanks.
I’ve had it once on my sauerkraut when the brine was a little too weak.
Good to know. Thanks for the tip.
Following are some photos of a mash brewed at 80 F that I created yesterday. If this turns out successfully I would call it yeast wort :).
The texture on top is amazing! Living things are so incredible.
It smelled kind of weird not yeast like, don't know how to describe it, but it had a hint of alcohol and sweetness to it. I will leave it alone for a couple of days to see what happen.
Beautiful loaf Savvas!
Is your thought on the lower temp due to the flavor profile you prefer, or is there another benefit you see?
Hi HeiHei29er and thx for your comment.
My aim is always twofold. Maximise flavor, texture and sensory perception of bread in general and easiness towards achieving this. I think the lower 90F (in comparison to the 110F) offers better ground to accomplish both.
Hi Pane,
Thank you for this new set of conditions to make "flas"- do you prefer the name "sourwort"?
I have been following the 48h at 42-45C, but this way at 38h at 32C will be faster!
Your breads are amazing!