Ken Forkish Pain de Campagne Frustration
Hi All,
I have attempted to make Ken Forkish's Pain de Campagne - a total of 8 loaves. Although some are better than others, I have encountered the same issue every time... after proofing overnight, the dough deflates when I remove it from the Banneton. Granted, the dough also sticks to the Banneton, which doesn't help (I'm working on fixing this) but I think the issue is either (1) over proofing or, (2) the no knead recipe results in low gluten formation. I have also had difficulty scoring. It's as though the dough is too soft to score with no "skin" to it. After baking, the interior seems too dense and has a somewhat sticky texture.
I'm considering using my electric mixer rather than the folding method for my next attempt, just to determine if the issue is (1) or (2). The recipe calls for overnight proofing, literally 10-12 hours in the fridge. However, after just 5-6 hours the poke test results in dough that barley springs back. I know this is usually evidence of over proofing, however I'm not proofing nearly as long as the recipe requires, so I can't image that is the issue. So, I'm learning towards low gluten formation due to no-knead approach.
Any advice is appreciated!
Welcome aboard.
Forkish and his two cookbooks are popular here.
Your dough sounds a little over-hydrated. Adjusting water amount is a common thing, because bakers can almost never get the exact same flour that cookbook authors use. Moisture content varies, and flour gains or loses moisture in storage.
To start off... what country are you in, and what brand and type of flour are you using? (Flour differs greatly, country to country.)
(It helps to fill in location on your user profile.)
Thanks for the advice! I'm in the US in Orlando, FL.
I'm using King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour and King Arthur All Purpose.
Good point about hydration. I have been following his process, but the dough is pretty loose even at the end of fermentation prior to shaping. That being said, it does "appear" to be similar to what he shows in his You Tube videos (I wish he would show a few more close-up shots). :)
Several places in FWSY, pages 28 & 65 and more, he says his daytime room temp is 70 F. On page 66 he says his overnight house temp is 65 F / 18 C.
The higher the temp, the faster the fermentation.
So, as is often said here, "you have to watch the dough - not the clock."
I assume your Orlando room temp is higher than 70.
So, if you aren't already doing so, it helps to bulk ferment in a clear straight-sided container, and terminate bulk ferment when it's 2.5 times (per this formula) original volume, and not go the full 5 hours.
In humid Florida, your flour may have absorbed some moisture, so I'd recommend cutting the hydration back some.
Also, the finger-poke test doesn't work on cold dough.
Flouring the banneton will help with sticking. A 50/50 mix of AP flour and white rice flour is good.
Are you using a cane banneton, or improvising with something solid? You need a porous banneton so that moisture can be "wicked away" to get that skin. A cloth liner helps too.
Another thing to check is your fridge temp. Should be 39F max. If you have a probe thermometer, take a reading on some liquid, like OJ or milk, on same shelf where the banneton sits.
Wow! So much helpful information, thank you! I'll check the fridge temp for sure.
Yes, my house is 72 at its coolest and 78 during the day. I'll admit, I have been following his book based on time, not temp and dough appearance. So, I've resolved that I need to change my approach. I'm just such a recipe follower. :) I am using the same containers for both levain and fermentation that he recommends in the book, however I will be more diligent about marking the container during fermentation.
And finger poke doesn't work on cold dough, wow! That is a little frustrating, only because he mentions in his overnight recipes that the dough can go straight from fridge to dutch oven. So I cant really count on that method for an overnight refridgerated proof.
I did flour the bannetons well this last round but still had some sticking. I think I will use the liner for the next batch, as the frustration of getting so far only to have the banneton mar the dough is not work the lovely benneton marks at this point. Yes, they are cane bannetons.
Finally, curious your thoughts on the overnight refridgerated proof in a plastic bag? I'm following his direction, but have read that condensation can be an issue and the "skin" needed to score the dough does not develop, as a result. I've traditionally used a linen towel, but am trying to be true to his direction.
...fridge temp is 45! So clearly that needs to be lowered...
I always cold proof my loaves in a plastic grocery bag that is closed but not tightly sealed. And I use a floured liner. There is usually condensation on the inside of the bag.
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I forget exactly how Forkish does it, but there are two ways to allow for oven-spring:
1. Score the dough with a knife/lame on the side that was in contact with the banneton, where the lines or ridges are. To do this, you put the dough in the banneton seam side up, then flip the dough out of the banneton, score it, but do not flip again when you put it in the dutch oven.
2. If you want the oven spring/expansion to be on the seam, kind of jagged, you put the dough seam side down in the banneton, flip it out, and don't flip any more when you put it in the dutch oven. No scoring needed.
Here's user danni3ll3 seam-side-down no-scoring loaves.
C368CF78-A572-429D-A9CD-EBB70B1A9CED.jpeg
Dave (or anyone), not aware of a direct way to search for this. Sorry, if so. Anyone have the link to this thread by danni3113?
I used the search box and got a car taking me to another link. a lot of links. Dont know if it is me or site. I put danni... in the box and ran a search and it went crazy. Had to erase history & cookies and backtrack To get back to TFL
I repeated and it happened again. Something is amiss.
!!!
The search box is working fine for me.
I'm using Firefox on Ubuntu.
I just got a takeover ad once too. Did a search, the search page started to load, then it redirected me to a skeezy ad page.
I hit the back arrow and was on the TFL search results fine.
I've since searched about 30 different times in a couple of different browsers, logged in and logged out, and not been able to trigger it again.
I use a couple of ad networks to fill the ads here. On both I've opted out of takeovers, popovers, pre-roll video, and all of the other "high impact" ad formats that drive me nuts. That said, from time-to-time ads like that sneak through. Typically they've gone away after a day or two. Hopefully that'll be the case here too. My apologies to anyone who runs into an ad like that in the meantime.
after erasing cookies did the trick. Thanks Floyd for the right jargon and explaining what happened. Sorry to distract from the thread. I was trying to get Danni's blog using the end code 3113 or 3ll3 (3 el el 3) (I think the latter) and the search engine needed time to find it, took a pause then that redirect stuff started happening while an auto with "loading" appeared.
I came back after logging in again and searched for "Mini Oven" and search engine seemed fine. I hope it's gone too. I might have picked it up on a side search if it was just me and hope it left with a cookie dump.
Sorry to temporarily highjack the thread and glad its been checked it out. Let's bake!
We jokingly accuse danni with uploading the same photos for all her bakes, they are that consistent.
See her blog. That photo is from her latest blog post, currently under the "Recent Blog Entries" section on the TFL front page.
Here's a comment that I wrote a while back that details how "shaping" is important for a good dough skin. Shaping is more than just "shape." It's a procedure for stretching the skin that causes the gluten to firm up.
Also included are links to 3 videos about shaping.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/489849#comment-489849
Florida has its problems with high pH or alkaline water. Check your water pH.
Good point. Here's an article on how water quality affects bread. tajohnson doesn't mention the type/source of water used, but profile says from Orlando, a city that has had tap water "issues".
Not all of Florida has bad tap water. I live in So. Florida and have never used anything but tap water, which goes directly from faucet to mixing bowl. I've never noticed an issue with the water as a factor here. So the water quality is certainly not global within the state.
As with anyplace else on earth tap water can be a regional concern.