20200531 Sour CLAS Bread

June 2, 2020 - 11:33am

Yippee

20200531 Sour CLAS Bread

To learn more about concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS), please see here and here.

Lance and Pul had asked me how acidic the bread made with CLAS is. My answer: It depends. One can create aromatic, full-flavored, but mild-tasting loaves by using a small amount of CLAS. One can also make sour bread by manipulating the amount of CLAS used, temperature, timing, and ingredients. And the critical control is straightforward--the temperature.

Because all the sour loaves I previously made with CLAS contained a high percentage of rye, to compare apple to apple, I used only wheat flour in this bake to experiment. What I made was the mild-tasting Ukrainian loaf that I had made before.

The plan of this bake was:

Pre-dough

3% WW CLAS

30% Beehive AP

50% water

Main dough

pre-dough

67% Beehive

10% water (I forgot to add the remaining water, so the bread ended up with a 50% hydration)

2% salt

0.8% dry yeast

Preparing the pre-dough the night before, the pH of the mixture was 5.1.

After ~ 10 hours @ 30C/86F (it might have been ready in less than 10 hours, but I wasn't checking in the middle of the night), the pH dropped to 3.7.

pH 4.7 - fully-fermented main dough after about three hours @ 31C/88F - 33C/91F ish.

The 50% hydration loaf had less volume than the 60% hydration loaf.

The crust was more crackly because of the lower hydration.

This loaf had a much stronger and long-lasting tangy aftertaste than the one made without pre-dough. One can easily create a sour loaf with CLAS by playing with the variables.

bread1965

June 3, 2020 - 6:03am

CLAS

HI Yippee - Looks good and interesting experiment.

But what's CLAS?

And I"m surprised by how warm you kept the dough for so long without over-fermenting the dough.

Thanks..

Benito

June 3, 2020 - 6:28am

Very nice bake Yippee!Benny

Very nice bake Yippee!

Benny

Yippee

June 4, 2020 - 9:18pm

CLAS

Thank you, guys!

Bread1965: I may not have clearly described my procedures in my post. The fermentation time was about two hours, and altogether it took me about three hours to make the bread. So, the fermentation time was not that long. CLAS stands for "Concentrated Lactic Acid Sourdough." I just learned about CLAS recently from a Russian baker, Rusbrot. He demonstrates how to use CLAS in breadmaking on his Youtube channel and explains the science and the benefits of this fantastic technique on Blogger. Rus is a friendly and knowledgeable baker. He will answer any question about bread (especially rye bread) that you may have!

Best,

Yippee

jo_en

May 4, 2022 - 10:55pm

starting clas

Hello!

I am trying the CLAS tonight in the proofer . I have one without malt and 1 with barley malt. The temp probes in the proofer were showing 42C but I am lowering it slowly to get 40C.

I guess I must refresh for 12 h if the first stage works.

I still don't understand the use of CLAS.

If I usually use 22% starter then do I just substitute with the same amount of CLAS?

Would it be ok to go through the same dough bulk fermentation and overnight retard as usual?

I bake 93% whole wheat lean pan loaves.

I am not sure I am getting all the details right when I watch the foreign lang videos .

Thanks!!

Yippee

May 5, 2022 - 5:08am

Hello!

I am trying the CLAS tonight in the proofer . I have one without malt and 1 with barley malt. The temp probes in the proofer were showing 42C but I am lowering it slowly to get 40C.

42C is fine, no need to change.

I guess I must refresh for 12 h if the first stage works.

Not necessarily. If making white bread, use it straight from the fridge. If high % rye/whole wheat/grain, refresh. See the guidelines below.

I still don't understand the use of CLAS.

general guidelines

Mariana: The general rule for baking with CLAS is to introduce 10-15% of all flour in bread with CLAS, if it's a straight dough method, where dough ferments for 2-3hrs. If it's a two-step method (sponge/levain + dough stages), then CLAS is added to the yeasted sponge, 5-10% of all flour coming from CLAS. Sponge ferments for 3-4hrs, dough for 1-2hrs.

More specific guidelines

Rus:

Preservation and refreshment

CLAS can stay in a fridge for 7-14 days and should be periodically refreshed like traditional sourdough.
CLAS requires only one refreshment step, but the temperature should always be 40°C±2°C:

CLAS (from fridge T. +4°C) 33g
Water T. 50°C: 190 ml
Whole grain rye flour: 100g
Fermentation temperature: 40°C±2°C
Fermentation time: 12h
Hydration: 190%

For refreshment you do not need food film any more. After CLAS is refreshed, it can be used for pre-dough or dough or can be placed into fridge. It can even stay at room temperature for 24h, if you are not going to bake rightaway.
CLAS convinces not only with rapid producing technology, but also with very pleasant taste and flavour of the baked breads.

How to bake with CLAS?

There are guidelines for bakeries, that have been proved by me and many other russian hobby bakers since couple of years already. But, first of all, you should not forget, that CLAS is yeastless, that is why baker yeast should be added (fresh or dry) to the pre-dough or to dough to be able to bake.

Baking GuidelinesRye bread, containing 80-100% of rye flour

These breads should be baked using refreshed CLAS, not CLAS from fridge.
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) => pre-dough => dough

Formula for 1k of flour:

Pre-dough
CLAS: 290g (100g flour, 190ml water)
Water: 420ml T 33-35°C
Rye flour: 500g
Yeast: 6g fresh or 2g dry
Fermentation time:3h
Fermentation temperature:29°C

Dough
Water: 50-80ml
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 400g (or 200g rye + 200g wheat flour)
Fermentation time:60-90 min
Fermentation temperature:30°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 260°C, then 50 min at 200°C

Rye-wheat breads, containing 50-75% of rye flour

These breads will be baked using refreshed CLAS, not CLAS from fridge.
There are two ways - with pre-dough and without.

Pre-dough method
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) => pre-dough => dough

Formula for 1k of flour

Pre-dough
CLAS: 145g (50g flour, 95ml water)
Water: 500ml T 33-35°C
Rye flour: 550g
Yeast: 6g fresh or 2g dry
Fermentation time:3h
Fermentation temperature:29°C

Dough
Water: 50-70ml
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 400g (or 100g rye + 300g wheat flour)
Fermentation time:60-90 min
Fermentation temperature:30°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C

Direct method (without pre-dough)
Refreshing CLAS (usually overnight) =>dough

Formula for 1k of flour

Dough
CLAS: 290g (100g flour, 190ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 430-460ml
Yeast: 6-7g fresh or 2-2.5g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 500g
Wheat flour: 400g
Fermentation time:2,5-3 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 10 min at 250°C, then 45 min at 200°C

Wheat-rye bread, containing 30-40% of rye flour

This breads can be baked using CLAS from fridge without refreshment. CLAS should be just warmed up.

Formula for 1k of flour
Dough
CLAS: 203g (70g flour, 133ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 470-500ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Rye flour: 230g
Wheat flour: 700g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-32°C
Final proof: 45-60 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 250°C, with steam

Wheat bread,all-purpose flour or high gluten

This breads can be baked using CLAS from fridge, without refreshment. CLAS should be just warmed up.

Formula for 1k of flour

Dough
CLAS: 87-145g (30-50g flour, 57-95 ml water)
Water T 33-35°C: 550ml
Yeast: 20g fresh or 7g dry
Salt: 15-20g
Wheat flour: 950-970g
Fermentation time:1,5 h
Fermentation temperature:30-33°C
Final proof: 45 min at 32°C
Baking: 30 min at 230°C, with steam

You shoud consider temperature and time guidelines not only for CLAS, but at any stage, otherwise you will fail!

If I usually use 22% starter then do I just substitute with the same amount of CLAS?

No no no. See the guidelines above.

Would it be ok to go through the same dough bulk fermentation and overnight retard as usual?

Then it defeats the purpose of using CLAS, which is to obtain excellent flavor without having to go through long fermentation.

I bake 93% whole wheat lean pan loaves.

Why don't you tell me your formula, and I'll tell you how I'd handle it. I'm quite busy today, maybe I'll take a look at it on Friday or Saturday evening.

I am not sure I am getting all the details right when I watch the foreign lang videos .

Read his blog and use Google translate to understand the theories. That's how I got the guidelines that I show you above.

Yippee

jo_en

May 5, 2022 - 2:50pm

thank you!! for clas help

Dear Yippee,

Thank you for the wealth of information! I will sit down later tonight and try to digest it.

I stirred my clas (at 15 hour mark) and both (with and without malt) smelled good . 8 more hours and it should be completed.

My ph meter is coming tomorrow.

My formula is:

Starter: 15 gr rye sour + 60 gr KA Bread flour + 60 gr water: 7 hours until it floats

Autolyse:

450 gr freshly milled whole red wheat (sieved and the bran ground 2-3 times more-Komo mill)

10 gr salt

390 gr water (This makes 90% hydration on the whole wheat and 66.6% on the white flour)

For Bulk: (7hr , time coincidental with starter growing to peak)

Mix autolysed dough with 130 gr starter.

1) Wait 30 min, then do long coil fold.

2) Wait 1 hr , then laminate dough.

3) Wait 1 hr and then perform coil fold and repeat 2X every 30 min.

4) wait until dough passes the thumb test

Shape and put in pan or banneton.

Retard overnight.

Bake with steam 500 F (24 min) ; reduce heat to 440F and bake until 207F internal.

==== Volume before retard overnight : Volume after baked = 2 (at least)

I bake 1500 gr of flour in 1 bake about every 10-12 days and it does take a lot of time.

So I am very interested in how the clas method works.

Thank you again for your guidance!!

Yippee

May 5, 2022 - 3:33pm

Baker's %

Hi, Joe:

If you could present your formula in baker's %, that would be very helpful to me. Thx.

Yippee

jo_en

May 6, 2022 - 12:04am

formula baker's %

Hi Yippee,

Would this be what you need?

Total Flour	100%	517.5 gr	7.5 g wh rye (milled) 60 gr white Bread flour 450 gr wh wheat (milled)
Starter	25.7%	135 gr	rye sour + 60gr BrFl +60gr water
Salt	2%	10gr
Water overall	88.4%	457.5 gr	7.5g + 60 gr + 390 gr-(in starter+autolyse)
Water autolyse only	75.4%	390 gr
Water starter	13.0%	67.5 gr

My clas is ready (24 h). I won't be able to check ph until the meter comes tomorrow.

In reading the whole wheat formula that you sent, it appears that I can take this just made clas and make a bread dough now.

However, if I cool and store the clas in the refrigerator for more than 7 days, then I must refresh it before making high percentage whole grain (freshly milled) doughs.

If I have only stored fresh clas for a short time (2-4 days) in the refrig, could I bring it to room temp and make up a dough from it?

I will pay attention to the water and fermenting temps!

Yippee

May 6, 2022 - 2:28am

Yes

Thx.

Do you usually develop bread dough by hand or by machine?

2-4 day CLAS = fresh. I'd warm it up with 42C water before use.

Yippee

jo_en

May 6, 2022 - 1:09pm

clas dough fermenting

I watched "rus brot" on YT and am doing the 700 gr 100% whole wheat loaf for 2300 ml pan.

My pan is only 1600 ml so I may take the left over dough and try it out as pita (puffing on stovetop is my favorite way).

The pre-dough is at 30C for the next 4 -5 hrs. I used freshly milled flour and the dough seemed

quite stiff so should I add more water to get the looseness that his dough was at the end?

pul

June 5, 2020 - 6:32am

I started playing with the

I started playing with the method, built some CLAS following the instruction on RUS's blog, and had a 1st bake. My first observations are that I have not seen much difference in flavor as compared to a conventional yeast bread. There could be several factors. First the CLAS quality I produced may not be good enough, second the CLAS amount used in the dough preparation was not high enough, and third my method to prepare the dough could be plain wrong. I have actually produced a conventional poolish but added the CLAS only during the final dough mixing, as opposed to your method which adds CLAS in the pre-dough preparation. I do not have any pictures to show, so I will have another run some time later and do some documentation.

Thanks

albacore

June 5, 2020 - 2:38pm

I tried CLAS too

CLAS making worked a dream and I made a rye/wheat loaf. I thought the flavour was OK, with some lactic (yoghurt type) flavour, but a lack of acetic sour flavour. I think this is inevitable because the high temperature used to make CLAS favours lactic rather than acetic.

Perhaps it would be possible to also add some sourdough levain to the mix to get some sour flavour in?

Lance

Yippee

June 6, 2020 - 12:32pm

Rye

Hi, Lance:

According to Rus, by creating a pre-dough with lower hydration and long fermentation time, one can get more acetic acidity with CLAS in rye bread. 70% hydration results in more acetic acid at 28°C. Maybe you can manipulate the rye flour in your dough to achieve the result you want. I noticed that the cherry chocolate bread I made last time was the tangiest of all the white loaves I made with CLAS, even though I didn’t do it on purpose. I guess it was because I used whole rye CLAS and rye flour in the dough.

To produce more of the acetic acid flavor in my experiment, I probably would lower the temperature and let the dough ferment longer to a point where it does not degrade.

If I were you, I would not add levain to the dough if I am already using CLAS because it means more work! You know that I have been trying to reduce the hassle of baking so that I can enjoy it more. Having to maintain a levain defeats the purpose of using CLAS!

Best,

Yippee

jo_en

May 6, 2022 - 8:24am

Will mix clad today

Hi Yippee, I tasted the clas last night and no bitter taste. I will mix 1 batch of pita and 1 loaf today. I read the recipes and watched the video.The video shows a simple rotary beater / mixer. I usually do it by hand but will handle it as the video does. So bread by dinner?

Yippee

May 6, 2022 - 10:06am

Absolutely!

You will fall in love with CLAS! I am so excited for you! Let us know how it goes.

I'll look at your whole wheat recipe tonight and think about what I would do if I were to bake it.

Yippee

P.S. It's very important that a whole wheat dough is fully developed to yield the best results. Generally, here's how I do it, but as I have more experience with CLAS, I've changed my procedures a bit. The bread machine part is not applicable to you, but there might be some useful information for you.

jo_en

July 11, 2022 - 7:37pm

zojirushi and clas, recent attempts

Hi Yippee,

I have been trying several times with clas. Temp control is never my problem! I have had limited success with the bread but the dough has a great smoothness and handleability. I like its taste, aroma and softness (especially for 100% whole grain) and so I want to keep pursuing this method and gain experience in these areas: sufficient dough development, optimal water content and final proofing right before the bake. I know too that Final Bake Temp of 208F is too high.

A discovery:

One day I had 60 gr fresh clas left and decided to add it to the King Arthur 100% Whole Wheat for Zojirushi Bread Machine recipe. It is an enriched dough.

While the machine processed the different stages (preheat, knead, rise), I discovered that the Zojirushi (BBCC-X20-older model) 's "Basic Wheat" Course preheats and kneads dough that results in a dough at 30C. I also measured the dough temp through its one rise (1h 30 min?) and it held at 30C! This was a bonus for clas recipes! - Truly 1 bowl work, no separate beaters and no moving bowls in and out of place.

The "Basic Wheat" course of the Zoij has only 1 rise but I think I can use the "Homemade" course and make 4 specific programs that only preheat, knead, rise, bake the bread. In this way I can try to control all the clas steps that the rusbrot videos show since the temp seems to be at 30C for kneading and rising periods.

That's all for now and will report any positive news!

Yippee

July 12, 2022 - 12:12pm

Did you know

You can use ~~Rise2~~ Rise3 to prove at a higher temperature, ~32-33C DT? It's such a neat machine!

I preset one program to mix, another to bulk ferment, and then prove and bake in the air fryer. I have to wash at least 2 bowls. So you win!

Yippee

P.S.

I don't bake in Zo often enough to offer any suggestions on the baking part, but if you have questions on how to improve the bread in other areas, I might be able to help.

jo_en

July 12, 2022 - 3:38pm

programming zoji

Yes I saw the Rise 2 now and also Rise 3 - I will make a test run and see what temp R3 is at.

Did you ever find a cheap and small device for making the 24hr clas from scratch? I just hesitate to buy another counter appliance. The one on rusbrot video is so small and compact -perfect to get the fresh clas.

You mentioned once that you needed to grind finer on your Vitamix for the clas breads. Does that mean 2 passes with sifting? The German blogs talk about an extra fine wheat flour but do you think clas is conditioning the dough so as to make the relatively coarser grind from the Komo or Mockmill less important?

Also I did make the clas panettone but made so many mistakes during the process (but not in temp!)- especially in mixing. I can see why Rus uses his hand held spiral beaters. Nevertheless, it was such a good bread and it even turned into really nice light and crunchy biscotti type strips. That was a winner for me.:) I want to adjust that one and make a whole wheat type dough.

You are right about clas. It opens up a new area of easier methods for dough handling on whole wheat.

Thank you for all your help!!!

Yippee

July 21, 2022 - 6:24am

Hi, Joe_N

Sorry for the late reply.

"Did you ever find a cheap and small device for making the 24hr clas from scratch? I just hesitate to buy another counter appliance. The one on rusbrot video is so small and compact -perfect to get the fresh clas."

Yes, a coffee mug warmer - a great idea from Gary!

The coffee mug warmer is connected to a thermostat.

Place the warmer in a well-insulated place, in this case, the Instant Pot, to prove with a water bath. The probe measures the water temperature.

"Also I did make the clas panettone but made so many mistakes during the process (but not in temp!)- especially in mixing..."

Rus's panettone recipe is much easier to mix than most of the Italian panettone recipes. I would add the ingredients to Zo in the following order:

predough

flour - dough

egg

sugar - dough

vanilla extract

mix and the dough will be very dry

Gradually add water to the extent that Zo can develop the dough, then stop adding water if some has not been added to the dough.

Continue kneading the dough until the gluten is slightly less than fully developed.

Gradually add the cold, diced butter and mix until the dough is fully developed.

Add the remaining water and mix thoroughly.

Add and mix the inclusions.

"You mentioned once that you needed to grind finer on your Vitamix for the clas breads. Does that mean 2 passes with sifting? The German blogs talk about an extra fine wheat flour but do you think clas is conditioning the dough so as to make the relatively coarser grind from the Komo or Mockmill less important?"

I don't sift. After the first round of grinding, I feel the flour with my fingers, and usually, it is a little grainy. Therefore, I grind again, for a shorter time, until the flour feels silky smooth.

In my experience, CLAS softens the whole-grain dough, making it more absorbent and pliable. There is no doubt that it is an effective dough conditioner. I haven't used my Mockmill yet, but I can imagine it mills a coarser flour than the Vitamix. If your home-milled flour is still too coarse after multiple passes, I would "autolyze" the (100% whole-grain or high % whole-grain) dough at a warm temperature, ~28-32C, for an hour or so before adding the yeast, meaning you mix everything except the yeast and let it sit for a while before kneading. Experiment with different resting times to see if it makes any difference, but I'd limit it to 2 hours.

Another solution to coarse flour is to increase the amount of CLAS but not exceed the maximum percentage in Mariana's guideline. Make a wheat CLAS with wheat malt if you like your bread to be as whole-wheat as possible. As I said, the procedure is the same, but the hydration is 150%, and the refresh ratio is 1:7.

Yippee

jo_en

July 21, 2022 - 10:02pm

thank you

I have recorded all these tips and will pay attention to them and will try the autolyse (no yeast).

I am adding 8% rye clas to whole wheat. (I believe that the Mariana guideline allows for 10%rye from clas for either 2 step predough and dough, or 1 step dough processes.)

Thank you again!!

Yippee

July 25, 2022 - 5:40am

15% max per Mariana's guideline

I usually use the max % for 100% whole-grain bread.

Yippee

jo_en

July 16, 2022 - 9:05pm

clas 100% wh grain (92%wheat)

This is what I got on the last try with clas. (Small loaf due to total flour=340g)

I had 79 gr of fresh clas left - that contains 27gr rye and 52g water.

I tried a formula with 8% rye from clas: Then total flour = 340g. Whole wheat will be 92%.

The first KNEAD (clas , wwheat flour, 72% water overall, dry saf yeast-.3%)

[clas (from refrigerator), cold water (from tap), whole wheat (warm from milling) <-- I forgot to warm up clas with warm water; was planning to use BASIC WHEAT cycle which has a PREHEAT included]

KNEAD with Zoji -18 min until smooth ball , all dough released from sides and bottom of pan.

KNEAD 10 min more adding salt (2%) and last 8-9% water (to get overall hydr of 80-81%) The Dough temp now was correct-28F :)

2.5 hr in proofer at 87F. (could have been a little too long for this smaller loaf)

It was shaped, put into a loaf pan for last rise at 87F (checked at 55 min but slightly overproofed due to smaller loaf; 45 min better for 340 gr flour).

Baked at 425F (oven preheated 1 hr) with steam- 20 min; then lowered temp to 385F to bake without steam until 197F Internal temp.

It is the softest and chewiest ww loaf I have ever had, wonderful taste. Crust is thin.

Top 75% is airy/perfect but thicker at the bottom.

Questions-

-Is thicker bottom due to too much water?

-too tight shaping?

-too long final proof?

-should I bake to a higher temp than 197F?

-do I need to let dough with yeast rest after kneading before adding salt and last water? ( I think I saw Rus do that.)

I do not think I have ever had a 100% whole grain loaf like this-chewy, so soft, pliable, not at all heavy. I can't believe it.

(the bread texture of 100% whole wheat bread with honey, oil , vital gluten, milk powder is very different).

Well, I am going to keep working on improving with clas.

Yippee, Thank you for promoting clas as you have.

This is my 5th try and now I can see some of the great benefits to this bread that you have been talking about.

No artisanal bakery in the Bay Area has 100% whole wheat lean loaves like this.

So glad to have heard about this!!

-----

I did try a bake in Zoji but the temp (300-325F acc to a manual) was much lower than 425F so I will oven bake in the future. The loaf was edible though.

Yippee

July 25, 2022 - 6:36am

100% whole-grain

I had 79 gr of fresh clas left - that contains 27gr rye and 52g water.

I would keep more CLAS on hand. If there is only so little left, refresh it at 1:9 (flour in your CLAS: new flour), and it will only take 12 hours.

I tried a formula with 8% rye from clas: Then total flour = 340g. Whole wheat will be 92%.

If it is 100% whole grain, I usually use 15% CLAS.