Help troubleshoot bagels -giant ugly blisters
Hi, we are trying to make bagels for our coffee shop. We are using the Reinhardt recipe. We are having a problem where anywhere between 20 and 80 percent of the finished product has huge blisters. They are sometimes 1 inch in size and create a truly ugly product. The bagels have great flavor and are dense with nice skin. Attached are some pictures. We’ve varied everything based on research into the problem but have not found a solution. We’ve made hundreds of bagels testing. We’ve varied the following:
- Hydration 48 to 52 percent
- Yeast 2g to 6g per batch (2g was under yeasted, under risen but still blsters)
- Bake temp from 375 to 500
- Proof /rise 10 minutes to 2 hours (varied in every combination)
- Retarded rise of shaped bagels from 2 hours to 20 hours
- 3 kinds of flour, one bread flour, two high gluten types
- Boil times from 30 seconds to 2 minutes per side
- Various amounts of baking soda and optionally malt added to boil water
- Shaped using the “snake” method, and punching a hole through the ball method
There is no correlation between these and whether we get a good batch or not. And we’ve kept records. We use a mixer with dough hook that we use to mix. Sponge is 1 to 2 hour rest and is active. It seems that whatever is causing the problem lies outside the parameters I’m recording. So maybe technique is suspect. I’ve cut open the bagels at different stages to look at the texture. What small bubbles exist in the dough are still fairly small after boil. They seem to form in the oven. I originally thought we had a problem with overproofing or too much yeast but we’ve reduced those to minimal we still had the blisters but bagels not risen enough. So, any thoughts? I’ve run out of ideas.
...so I'll give it a go with your formula & recipe and see what happens. Could you post your first choice formula? Thanks.
Thank you, recipe will be posted up soon.
Bagel Recipe (4 dozen)
Day Before
In the large mixing bowl combine:
Stir and let sit until yeast dissolves, about five minutes.
Add:
Cover and keep from cold for two hours.
Tap sponge firmly on counter until air bubbles pop. Add sponge to mixing bowl.
Add:
Mix in mixer for ten minutes scraping dough hook every three minutes, or until a smooth dough forms. The dough should measure 75-80 degrees and should pass a windowpane test.
Divide dough into 5 oz. pieces. Shape pieces into smooth balls, cover and let sit on a lightly oiled pan for 30 minutes.
Form bagels by punching a hole through the dough balls and stretching until the hole is roughly the size of a Ping-Pong ball. Place shaped bagels back onto pans and let them sit for 30 minutes in a warm place, or until they pass a float test.
Put pans in the refrigerator overnight, but no longer than 20 hours.
Next Morning
Pre-heat oven to 450. Bring a full pot of water to a boil, adding 20g baking soda.
Place bagels in water pan side up (meaning the side touching the pan is now the top for first half of boil). Boil for one minute, then flip the bagels and boil for one more minute. Slide bagels onto pan so that the smooth side is on top.
Bake for 12 minutes, rotating halfway through. Cool on wire rack.
That looks to me like a problem that formed when shaping. Make sure to knock out all of the air bubbles before shaping, and use the shaping method that starts with making a rope first, then rolling it around your hand, as opposed to the method of pulling a hole out of a roll.
That was one of our thoughts. We have tried to knock out any bubbles along the way. We have tried both methods for shaping and have had the problem occur with both. After the cold proof I've even cut into the uncooked bagels looking for bubbles, but none are very big so I have concluded (maybe wrongly) that it isn't the shaping. We're doing a batch now and I'l make some extra effort with the bubbles. Thank you!
Edit: I just tried rolling out the dough to eliminate bubbles then carefully forming a long cylinder and joining. Same issue persists.
Below is a cutaway of our bagels at different stages showing typical development of these blisters. There are some small bubbles through the dough, I don't know if they join up to form the big bubbles, or if maybe the skin is just like an airtight skin. We tried boiling pan of water and that did seem to help a little but it's a pain to use daily so would like to not use steam if we can keep away from it.
I think it is an excellent recipe and I made a test batch of twelve bagels with it. They have a dense but soft, chewy crumb. Perfect. However, I did perform some tweaks to avoid the bubbles (see recipe at bottom). I also recalculated your ingredients into a standard bakers formula and compared it with the recipe I usually use, and also for the sake of completeness, with Jeffrey Hamelman’s bagel formula (from Bread, p.328 (2013 edition)).
Formula: Angelfire Hamelman Roundhay Bakehouse
Flour 100% 100% 100%
Water 57% 58% 57%
Salt 1.2% 2% 2%
Yeast (dry) 1% 1.3% (IDY) 1.4% (IDY)
Malt powder 1.2% 0.5 (diastatic) 5% (non-diastatic)
Here are my comments, suggestions, and observations, most of which I bet you've already taken into consideration, but might not have made clear elsewhere in this thread. Apologies if that’s true. Anyway, here goes:
Here’s my amended recipe:
_____________________________________
Timings:
Sponge/Poolish: 12 hours or overnight
Mix & Knead: 15 min
Bulk ferment: 60 min (or until at least doubled in size)
Cold retard: 12-24 hours
Shaping: 10-20 minutes (depending upon quantity)
Water bath: 30-60 sec i(n batches of 4-6)
Bake: 20 min at 450/400F (fan), 220/200℃
_____________________________________
YIELD: 48 bagels
_____________________________________
INGREDIENTS
Sponge/Poolish:
Dough:
METHOD
Thank you for all of your effort to help us, I really appreciate it, and this gives us some places to turn to.
We have been adjusting salt and at this point we are closer to 1.8% based just on taste
Our yeast was cut back numerous times in an effort to prevent the large air (or CO2) pockets from forming. The amount is the minimum we found that would produce a rise and taste yeasty, but we should increase this.
We have fixed a lot of our blister issues by using a pan of boiling water in the oven with the bagels. This could be from moisture addition, but it could also be moderating oven temperature which as you suggest we have NOT checked. In addition we are using a convection oven. This oven has the ability to reduce fan to a 50% duty cycle which was an improvement.
We are not finished with our recipe, I'm one pushing for continuous improvement and we will try incorporating your ideas (including poolish) into our upcoming batches.
Again I sincerely appreciate all the effort you took to help us. I'll post a followup once we try out these ideas.
Matt
where you able to troubleshoot your bagel blisters? I’ve encountered the same problem after I upgraded to a spiral mixer. I’m trying to diligently figure out the issue but was wondering if you had a solution.
Question on the ingredients vs. the method instructions. In the ingredients, there is only water in the sponge, but in the Method details there is an additional "Add the 2.2kg water" with the second batch of flour. Is this accurate?
Thanks.