December 10, 2017 - 6:32am
Open crumb in hand-kneaded rye
I've been trying to get open-crumb sourdough rye for months and haven't figured out how. I mix by hand. I've tried Trevor Wilson's Rubaud method for an 85% hydration 40% rye, and after 2-1/2 hours kneading the bread never firmed up so I couldn't make a boule. Today I'm trying a 65% hydration 50% rye with preferment, and the dough is so sticky and it's grabbing back so much I can scarcely knead it. I've also tried not kneading at all, just mixing, and that gave me a flat loaf. What am I missing?
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Hi Shelah.. This is becoming a bit of a quest for me lately: how to make a 'Trevor like' open crumb. I've bought and downloaded his new book (9.99 on his site) which I'd highly recommend. It's not the type of book you'd read once and put away - this one will need to be studied. It's everything from starter, autolyse, how you stretch and fold, when you stretch and fold, how you handle it, how to shape, how to pre-shape, how to load into the oven. Reading the book gives you an appreciating of just how much is involved in the process - most of which I was oblivious to. I realize now that I've been too rough in how I have handled my dough and have to take a much more delicate approach to get the open crumb - which I have not yet. But it's so much more than that. I've noticed my starter isn't behaving as well as it normally has so I've spent this week just working on my starter development as I've accidentally discovered it behaves so differently with AP versus bread flour, etc.. So I'd recommend you get his book. No single answer you get on this thread will be able to answer 'what you're missing'..
Best of luck.. let us know you do along the way.. enjoy..
That was a very kind recommendation! Much appreciated!
Cheers!
Trevor
Hi Shelah, with the high amount of rye you are using in your recipes it is very unlikely that you will get an extremely open crumb. Rye flour behaves very differently than wheat, and doesn't contain much in the way of useful gluten. Rye breads are inherently denser than wheat breads. And as you've noticed, rye flour is very sticky. High percentage rye breads are really just an entirely different beast from wheat breads, and the results and crumb that you get from them will reflect that.
Cheers!
Trevor
Hi, Trevor. Thanks for responding. Yes, I have achieved open crumb for white and even for whole wheat, and for rye my expectations are nowhere near the openness I have seen for wheat. But there are degrees of openness. There is rye-like-a-brick and rye-like-heavy-cake and there is rye-like-a-cellulose-sponge and there is rye-with-little-holes. I am trying for rye-with-little-holes. I did achieve rye-with-little-holes with the high-hydration loaf I last made, but I kneaded the dough for 2-1/2 hours with the Rubaud method, and that's not sustainable, *and* I had to throw the mess into a loaf pan because it was a batter, not a dough. For this lower hydration bread, Laurie Smith just suggested I wait longer between the stretch-and-folds (one hour instead of a half hour) and I'm trying that right now as we speak. The dough seems to be responding to it. I suspect I will need many of these hour-apart folds and that is where I have been going over the months that I've been experimenting, although it does suck up a lot of time. What have you found works best for you?
Rye is, indeed ,a different beast. The trick is to develop the starch without irritating the rye. It doesn't like to be overly handled and is more of a batter than a dough. I usually mix in a stand mixer and I can see when it "comes together" -not like a cake or cookie dough but it just gets a different look as the beater drags through the dough. I don't go past that point in mixing.
By hand, rye is godawful sticky and was used in the concrete mix to build bridges and skyscrapers, I swear! Don't ever let even a speck dry on anything-it will be there forever!
Seriously, when handling/mixing rye dough by hand, I use my plastic bench scraper, a damp (not wet) hand and keep it in the bowl as much as possible for stretch/folds. Some people like to oil everything but I haven't been too successful with that.
Proofing is the other area that is different with rye. If you get the sweet spot of a thick enough gel and a proper proof (always shorter than you think with rye), you can actually get oven rise and rye-with-little-holes. (love the description-so apt). If you proof it too long (we are sometimes talking minutes), too much gas escapes and rye brick results. I believe this is how crackers were invented. Slice the brick thinly and dry after sprinkling with sea salt.
I believe if you drop the rye to 30% you may have better results. MiniOven is a rye expert here and has numerous posts on rye-great teacher! 30% is a good percentage to keep many rye characteristics and yet have more "little holes".
Have fun!
Thanks for this sweet post. I am wondering about the proofing, and still wondering about how much or how little to hand-mix. Will look to see what I can from MiniOven.
S
hello. This shall be my first post about Bread.
I’m particular to Tourte de Seigle. I’ve made about 16 of these maybe less. I started in the beginning of February. It was too rainy out here in Kauai. And the local baker has priced us out of the market. We’ve grown used to French bread prices. Which are never more than $2 for quite good loaves. And here they want $7 and then they screw up the change and it’s not salty enough.
sorry, to answer your question. I too have been wondering this. “How to get open crumb with Rye?” PS the Tourte De Seigle from the Auvergne region of France ?? I make is with 100% rye. I substituted the water ingredient 100% with a local Hawaiian IPA. I can tell you the difference is incredible. I made the same recipe last week with only half the water substituted and the as still getting some pretty tasty loaves, but the crumb wasn’t crumby enough. I made another batch this time i didn’t separate it into two boules and baked it the traditionsl way as one big loaf substituting a big salad bowl lined with Parchment for my banneton. I also added in the big deep roasting pan lid i saw someone using. Always new variations for that, but honestly. I think it’s the beer. It’s giving the bacteria so many other nutrients. I used an IPA. So it definitely browned the final product. I would suggest a more mild flavored beer but we are pretty shocked how great it is. Happy Breading.