Sourdough Pizza: Problems adapting a professional recipe for home use
Hello all!
I love baking. I want to pursue my dream of a little pizza/cafe/bakery in the country. I just got back from a month-long apprenticeship at a great little place that does it all. I have a recipe for sourdough pizza dough that I made every day for a month as an apprentice at a bakery. I mixed, shaped, and baked these into wonderful pies. I also baked the daily sourdough (similar to Tartine's recipe).
But now I'm at home. Sort of a devolution. I know I learned a process that was vetted. Tested. Proven. Here it is:
Ingredients (baker's %):
100/55/30/2 00 flour/water/100% hydration starter (100% bakers strong)/salt
Equipment:
Hobart 30 qt mixer
Process:
1.Combine water, flour, start in mixer and mix on low for 1 minute on low.
2. Rest for 30 minutes then add salt
3. Mix for 1 minute on low then 2 minutes on high.
4. Put dough on table, spread some oil and cover with plastic film
5. Divide and shape into balls (220g)
6. Proof in trays covered in plastic film (1-2 hrs)
7. Put in fridge for 1-3 days (depending on demand)
8. Pull out and use cold or after sitting out for up to a fewhours
So I want to continue trying to adapt his recipe for home use. I don't have a Hobart. Just a little Kitchenaid mixer. I'm certain not having the big mixer is part of the problem. And, of course, I'm using a pizza stone and a home oven. My house is also quite chilly and its winter. The temperature is never above 70 degrees.
I need some advice from any experts out there. Based on the above recipe, does anyone intuitively know how to proceed with adapting this recipe? The big thing that sticks out for me is the mixer. My little KAM has such little torque compared to that beast i used in the restaurant. Is there any advice for mixing small batches of this type of dough?
I'm using the starter that we built while i was working there. It bakes up wonderfully in boules, but the pizza has proved more elusive.
Thanks!
What is the highest temperature that your home oven will heat to? You will not get good results with 00 flour at less then about 800F. If you are baking at 500F-550F, try King Arthur All Purpose flour.
I was going to do a test with KA Bread Flour...since my sourdough bread is going great and proofing well. Im just going to do a side by side with a small amount of dough....leave it in bowls covered tightly with saran wrap and see what proofs.
Hi HansB - I'm intrigued by your reply. Are you suggesting that different flours cook better at different temperatures? How would a pizza made with 00 be better/different once cooked, versus using AP or bread flour? Curious.. thanks
00 flour is milled and blended for high-temp applications. You can have some success using 00 flour at lower temperature but you'll need to add sugar to get browning. It can also result in a tough crust when baked over 3 minutes. 00 really is best for Neapolitan style pizza made at temps above 700F. At 550F most white flours other than pastry flour will give good results.
I didn't realize that.. thanks!
I am definitely not an expert. However, I am vain about the pizza I make. Please note, that I've not yet tried using starter in place of yeast, so I'm talking only about commercial yeast as the leavening agent here.
I preheat the oven and stone to 500 degrees (as high as my oven will go). Once the oven has reached temperature, I preheat for a full hour after that. I use a wooden peel to build the pizza, then move it to the stone (very quickly to conserve as much oven heat as possible). I leave it on the stone until there is rise and some bubbling of the crust. I then move it to another location on the stone.
It takes about 7-9 minutes. I remove with a steel peel.
Do not use too many toppings. Practice the condimento philosophy, eh? If you use too much, the oven will not be adequate.
I too, use a KA mixer. It's a 5 quart stand mixer.
Good luck to you! I'm on my way to trying the sourdough starter instead of yeast, too!
I have successfully made pizzas with yeast/leaven and just leaven. For some reason its not happening now. ill let you know what comes of my flour test.
thanks for sharing your techniques!
..or else your KA will burn out/strip its worm gear. Just keep them coming. Instead of kneading which will quickly overwork the KA, stretch-and-fold does the job very well with this kind of dough (I use Doppio too). Try a 2½ bulk ferment with S+F every 30-40 min until you get good gluten development. Or you could try Jim Lahey's very successful no-knead pizza technique (available at many sites on the Web). Either way, you'd only need to use your KA to mix the dough which shouldn't strain it.
I suspect HansB is talking about wood-fired oven temperatures. I get great pizzas with a pretty much identical recipe to yours at 500-550F. But I did adapt the oven by using a hefty slab of marble (cut to size) as my baking stone and with a tray for steam. Some thick sheet metal would be even better (cheaper to find your own source and have it cut than pay for something expensive but good like Baking Steel).
I'll run a test with that vs the KAM as well!.
Also, why not just use the "Tartine" dough? Perhaps with your steam technique that would be worth a try. I know its not the steam of the combo cooker or steam oven but who knows?!
Regarding stones....i have a ton of bluestone on my property. Its about 3/4 inch thick. I tried putting one in the oven and it popped/exploded into layers. I wonder if its because I heated it too quickly. Perhaps ill try again with a super slow heat buildup.
GFBP.. for what it's worth.. I had a similar idea - using granite for pizza.. I was emailing an uncle of mine that runs a tile/granite installation company (super smart technical kind of guy).. this was his reply..
be careful with using the granite tiles in your possession to place the pizza
on when cooking. Granite is an igneous granular speckled stone containing
several different components of which quartz is one. Often you will notice
granite is used for exterior cladding on vertical surfaces which is highly
polished. Often, designers and architects will also specify the same colour
of granite on exterior flooring. When this application is specified, the
architect will specify a "flamed" non-slip surface of a coefficient of
friction of .05 which is the "standard" for non-slip surfaces. This process
is produced by literally flaming the surface of the granite to an extremely
high degree. This high level 750 to 1100 degrees F = 389C and 593 C will
allow the Quartz in the granite to explode from the surface and will create
a very non-slip surface. The "minor explosion" will NOT be dangerous if the
appliance door is closed. However, before eating the pizza, check to see if
the surface of the granite is intact before eating. Granite chips can be
very chewy! I'm sure using the granite you have should work well. Before
using, I suggest washing the granite with vinegar. Enjoy.
.side effects whatsoever. Domestic baking temperatures never get to the point where the polish breaks down. I do use silicon sheets - saves on cleaning time and means there's no cross-contamination of ingredients from any spillage on the stone. However, granite, like marble, contains many veins (often invisible to the eye) which steam will eventually expo it and fracture. It takes years of heavy use. Apologies for going into so much retail. I used to be a geologist.
If all this bothers you, there's always steel. Just make sure it's thickness will fit the rack guides. :)
...useful twice on the same day on TFL. Am I right to assume your bluestone is shale or slate? If so, it will delaminate under steam at very low temperatures regardless of how fast or slow you heat it. You need rock either with a crystalline structure and coherent mass (marble or granite) or very thick layering (an uniform and massive sandstone) for oven use. Hope this helps.
you may have to work in batches. use pulse for a minute or 90 seconds. works better than a KA from small batches. forget the 00 flour as mentioned above, it is best suited for high temperature and higher hydration than what will work in a kitchen. look up the model of your oven: most have an override setting that allows you to go up to 35 degrees hotter. my frigidaire stove (and my prior GE) both allowed this adjustment. normal for mine is 550 degrees, plus the 35 degree override gives 585°. Re flour, I use 11.5% King Arthur, but AP or bread flour will work, technique on mixing plus the 2-3 day ferment is what gives the flavor. I add a pinch of yeast too just to help a tiny bit, but the culture is what makes this so flavorful.
I use a pizza steel 4 inches from the top broiler and a stone 4" from the bottom. preheat 1 hour. I turn the broiler on just before loading the pie onto the top steel. door has to be slightly ajar to keep broiler on. After broiling for 90 seconds, I move the pizza to the bottom stone to get the crust crispy. total time is 4 minutes or so. Or go the easy way and just bake on the one stone at 585° for 6-7 minutes. Works great!
you may have to work in batches. use pulse for a minute or 90 seconds. works better than a KA for small batches. forget the 00 flour as mentioned above, it is best suited for high temperature and higher hydration than what will work in a kitchen. look up the model of your oven: most have an override setting that allows you to go up to 35 degrees hotter. my frigidaire stove (and my prior GE) both allowed this adjustment. normal for mine is 550 degrees, plus the 35 degree override gives 585°. Re flour, I use 11.5% King Arthur, but AP or bread flour will work, technique on mixing plus the 2-3 day ferment is what gives the flavor. I add a pinch of yeast too just to help a tiny bit, but the culture is what makes this so flavorful.
I use a pizza steel 4 inches from the top broiler and a stone 4" from the bottom. preheat 1 hour. I turn the broiler on just before loading the pie onto the top steel. door has to be slightly ajar to keep broiler on. After broiling for 90 seconds, I move the pizza to the bottom stone to get the crust crispy. total time is 4 minutes or so. Or go the easy way and just bake on the one stone at 585° for 6-7 minutes. Works great!
So many great things to try in your post. My dough isnt' proofing. That's my main problem right now. So I'm going to run those tests re flour and see if i can proof up! I will try your food processor technique but not today....my brain can't handle it :)
...isn't active enough? What is your build schedule?
Actually, it occurs to me that far more important might be the dough temperature. You mentioned how cold your house is. If the dough temperature drops below 22℃ (71F) during bulk fermentation or proofing it will slow radically. Aim for a Desired Dough Temperature of 23-24℃ (73-76F) during mixing and keep the dough warm.
Btw, I agree with the others about hydration. The slacker the better for Italian-style. If you're going for thick crust Chicago-style even then easing the hydration a little might help. A commercial oven can produce instant spring from just about any dough. A domestic oven needs some help.
does a horrible job at making bread and is just another thing to clean. We prefer long retarded pizza dough using a poolish insted of SD. I bake on a stone at 550F after heat =ing it for at least an hour.
I use LaFama AP which is 11.2% protein but this is hard to find. 10% grovery AP is too low a protein and and KA bread frlour is way too high a protein. Some people say tpo use high gluten flour for pizza but I find it way to springy. A good flour mix is store AP mixed with KA bread flour 50/50 or 2/3rds KA AP an 1/3 store AP.
I try to get a hydration of 69-71% 55% is bagel range and you aren't making bagels. Get about .5 -1% EVOO max in there to help the extensibility when forming. It will also help to brown the dough in a low temp oven at home something you don't worry about at 800 F.
I don't know how many pizza recipes I have made and posted here, maybe a dozen, but you can find them on my blog index. I like mine with garlic, sun dried tomato and rosemary in it.
Good luck
Hi! Thanks for your response. I upped the hydration to 60% in one of my tests. The dough was quite sticky and i couldn't make it into a ball without using a plastic scraper to shape it (as you would in any high hydration loaf). I used a 50/50 BS/AP. I'll post results here.
55% does produce a wonderful pizza in a wood-fired oven, though.
Hi,
Your formula is quite similar to mine and I had great success making mine from my home oven and on the grill, thanks to the advice I received from our members. Even though I've only made pizza three times, each time the pizzas turned out fine. I documented my process on my blog. Posts related to pizza are on the following dates:
20160716
20160724
20160807
Hope they are helpful to you.
Yippee
It's hard to make recommendations without knowing what your current results are like or what the problem is. I wouldn't finger the mixer as the issue, unless you really notice a lack of strength development in your dough...but even then, that is just one piece of a complex set of conditions. I would imagine that wood fired brick oven in the picture makes more of a difference than anything else. Ken Forkish talks about the relationship between oven temps and hydration (among other things) in his book 'The Elements of Pizza'. Contra what I've read elsewhere, he suggests that really hot ovens can get away with lower hydration doughs because the pies cook so quickly...the longer times needed to cook a pie at lower temps, he suggests, requires a bit higher hydration (TOTAL hydration for a direct dough around 68-70%).
Next, I would also imagine the ambient temps are going to require adjustments, but that calls for judging the development of the dough...are you getting sufficient rise during bulk fermentation? A warm spot, proofing box, warmer water in the mix, or just longer times might be needed.
Then look at your oven setup...how hot does it get? An infra-red thermometer isn't that expensive and is really handy here...just point the laser at your pizza stone or steel and get a temp. There are tons of discussions of how to boost temps in home ovens in the quest to mimic high temp pizza ovens. Using the broiler is one easy one - and Kenji Lopez Alt at seriouseats.com has a number of discussions of how to do it. I've also hacked an oven so I can run it on its cleaning cycle which got my stone up to 700F.
While I have a lot of experience baking sourdough bread and making pizza, I still find sourdough pizza rather fickle and challenging, and now prefer to do a direct dough with a 2-3 day stint in the fridge.
Overall, I imagine it will take a number of adjustments in your formula, process, and setup/equipment to get the kind of results you want - having them all working together toward that end. Post more info. and pics for more help on dialing it all in...
Good luck!
Hey,
I tried this and the taste isn't that great (at least for me).
I reckon the ratio of starter is too high.
I found this link in another post in this forum category:
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
This guy seems to have done a lot of research and his recipe calls for 9% starter and says it can range from 3% to 20%.
Another quote from him: "There is a lot of emphasis put on using the right type of flour. Personally, I think this focus is misplaced. Of course, it's important to use high quality ingredients. But improving your dough making technique is much, much more important than hunting down the exact right type of flour. The truth is that almost all flours sold are pretty high quality especially compared to what was available 60 years ago when Patsy Lancieri was making amazing pizza."
Mind you, take my comments with a grain of salt please. It is possible that I over proofed the dough or did something else that affected the flavour.