Input for optimizing baking schedule using a Rofco B40
Hey all,
I did the occasional post here an there and blogged once or twice, but, blogging requires disciplines and I only have a limited amount of that and have spent that on the baking itself rather than writing about it...
I do have a question now. I started a small once-a-week bread baking and delivery project recently and am up to 20 to 24 breads a week by now. I don't do this for a profit, it's mainly to get into the rhythm that once our bed&breakfast is up and running I already have the bread down.
I have the following questions:
- What things do people with a similar setup do to prevent getting up at 6 or earlier. Or at least to get up as late as they possible can
- What things do people with a similar setup do to maximise the amount of bread they can bake in specific time frame
- Are there are very simple (maybe yeasted) breads to add to the schedule that people will find attractive and will not lengthen the baking time significantly? Maybe some rolls?
So here's my current schedule. I'm baking using a Rofco B40 and a DIY proofer. I mix entirely by hand and my starter of a 66% hydration bread flour starter. All breads are 100% naturally leavened.
- I start on Wednesday evening taking let's say 150 grams of starter out the fridge, double it to 300 and leave it on the counter
- Thursday morning, I double the starter again to 600 and leave it on the counter
- Thursday evening I build my levain, which is usually about 60% bread flour, 20% whole wheat and 20% whole rye and I leave this on the counter
- Friday morning I build the final dough to whatever breads I'm baking. Usually two to three different kinds such as a typical 123-style bread (with 80% bread flour, 10% ww and 10% whole rye), a 50% rye with caraway seeds
- I mix without the starter, autolyse (30-45 min), add salt and starter, let ferment mixed with S&F for about 2 hours and put in the fridge. Usually about 16 to 20kg of dough
- Then on Saturday, the baking starts. A typical schedule looks like this
- 6.20 get up, turn on oven and proofer, get gear ready
- 6.40 dividing and pre-shaping the batch of rye breads
- 07:10 shaping of batch of rye breads, put in proofer
- 08:15 dividing and pre-shaping the batch of 123 breads
- 08:45 put rye batch in the oven (it's been proofing for approx. 1.5 hrs)
- 09:00 shaping of batch of 123 breads, put in proofer
- 09:20 batch of rye breads out of oven
- 10:10 batch of 123 breads in the oven
- 10:45 batch of 123 breads out of oven
So, this is a schedule for 2 batches. I can do three and be done by 12 or so.
A typical formula for my 40% rye bread is
- 40% whole rye
- 50% bread flour
- 10% whole wheat
- 72% water
- 2% salt
- 0.5 to 0.7% caraway seeds
- 10% prefermented flour
Looking forward to what this wonderful community has to share on this topic!
cheers,
Alef
alefarendsen
When I first saw your new post I thought 'I have a Rufco' and clicked in to read your post…….
Wow, you really have a time, huh? What a schedule. I can't add a thing because I've never attempted batches as large as you. Let alone all done by hand!! Or the hours you expend.
I can only give my respect, awe and also convey what a great post. My question is, when do you get any rest and relaxation????
The photographs of your breads are magnificent…..! Bet they taste as good as they look.
I can't let my little Rufco B5 read this… It would scare him to death.
Great Stuff…….
for the compliments.
It's actually not that I spend an amazing amount of time on it; I'm working from home and mostly do all the work in between all the other stuff I do.
Busiest is obviously bake day, which is by the way today, and I have plenty of time to do other stuff, such as typing this reply and entertaining my 7 months old baby boy :-).
And... it's only once a week...
Oops, little Jona has rolled over, he needs attention now. Bye :-)
Planning and timing is the key.
I also have 3 ovens. A Rofco B40 and a Lincat EC08, as well as a standard 68 litre domestic fan oven. However on one day a week I just use the Rofco B40 and the small one and bake about 20 loaves - 2-3 in the small oven (small Ryes) and sourdoughs in the Rofco.
I can get up at 6 am for this and have the bread in the shop by 9am.
Here's how it works.
3pm the day before: Starter out of the fridge, use to make a production levian. e.g. depending on the breads, maybe 280g of starter then 560g flour and 560g water. (wheat flour). Starter is topped up and goes back in the fridge in a few hours. Similar for the Rye.
8pm the same day. Mix/knead up the doughs. Leave in big plastic tubs overnight. The 100% Rye loaves go in the fridge.
6am. Oven(s) on. Bench cleaned. Dough tipped out, scaled/pre-shape/rest/shaped and left to prove in baskets/banetons/couche. This has to take under 30 minutes. I usually work to 1 minute per loaf.
8am. Into the oven(s) Although the Ryes out of the fridge will have been into the oven at about 7am and be out and cooling.
8:15: I've opened the oven vents and its shower time for me.
8:35-8:40 - unload oven. Start to bag and label loafs - into the basket/box and up to the shop.
Sometime later - clean the bakehouse.
This morning (Friday). I started at 4am, however I did all that process 3 times to bake 64 loaves. Same process although I had to do a double levian build yesterday starting at 10am to get the quantity of levian needed (about 7Kg)
My yeasted breads are also slow fermented overnight - using a fraction of yeast in the dough. e.g. with 530g of flour I'll use 1.7g of dried yeast rather than the 7-8g I'd normally use.
Right now, it's bed time - I have done the same process for tomorrow morning although I have a batch of croissants in the fridge which will come out to prove and be put in the oven when ready.
I can often fit in a batch of standard yeasted breads too - usually the sticky buns du-jour - e.g. over Easter, hot X buns (but they were scheduled slightly differently as I was making 75 at a time - 25 per Rofco tray)
This:
was most of the first batch of bread out of the ovens this morning... There were two more batches like that - the local shop got their by 8:30am and the other deliveries by about 9:15. 24 went to a local market.
I don't have a proofer/retarder other than a domestic fridge. I plan to make one at some point, but it'll be for the croissants, etc. more than the breads.
I think your process + levian build is a bit overly complex, but then you might think mine is too simple :-)
Cheers,
-Gordon
The two of you, alsfarendsen & dragon, are (pardon the use of this way over used word), awesome…! Having a plan & scheduled execution is certainly the key to lots of life's endeavors… Sort-a like "Good Luck.. seems the harder I work the more of it I have."
Gordon,,, if you recall, you have assisted me on several issues. One was when I blew-up my oven light lens in my little B5. I got carried away with my steamer….. I thank you.
Do you guys ever go much above 220c with your Rufco's???
Kanpai …….!
Only baked one thing at 240°C in my Rofco so-far (a Tartine loaf). The 220/210 top/bottom combination seems to be fine for me.
I will crank it up to do pizza in one of these days though.
I think the issue with hotter is that the tops start to scorch before the loaf is fully baked - probably due to the elements being on providing a more direct heat to the loaves. The bottom stone gets a little hotter than the others too, so sometimes bread bottoms get scorched there - that's why I run it a little cooler. I sometimes move the bottom loaves to the top after unloading to give them a few more minutes to darken a little before loading in the next lot.
-Gordon
Gordon,
Perfect….! 220c is what I landed on for the B5. Heat-soak to 220c, toss bake in, steam twice during the first 12 min, open vent & drop temp to 150c.
Sweet…… thanks again for the comfort advise…..
Kanpai…..
Hi! I have recently purchased a Rofco B 40….. What a game changer! I preheat to 250C….. put in dough…,. Directly turn down to 150C as Nicole at “True Food” does. Then, 20 minutes later…when I let the steam out…. I turn it back up to 220C the last 20 minutes….
I also purchased the Lsrge Rofco proofer….however that is on back order. :(
Suzi
Interesting to hear your process. I am only on a B5 so I don't know if it is just my lack of experience or the fact that the smaller ovens work slightly differently due to being only 1 stone surface.
Would love to hear thoughts on my normal white loaf process.
I suspect the critical question is - does removing the top heat during the initial steam do more to control the crusting? or does returning to temp faster offer more befit? I am at the point now where I am about to do some split batch test to see what works for me.
This is really only a single deck method as I guess for multi deck overs the upper stones effectively means there is always top heat.
P.S. how are these ovens not more of a thing?
GM! I believe turning the heat off initially prevents the crust from forming or hardening prior to the bread rising…..
I believe the cost is prohibitive for many for the Rofco oven…. However it changed my bread baking life…. ;) I got a Famag 8S as well but will only be using for > 4 K dough.,..
I am not sure how the workings of the B5 are diff than the B40…
Have a wonderful day!
This mornings bake. Supplying 2 small community shops. No market today (phew!)
Starting yesterday, 3pm (ish) made up the levians - wheat and rye.
7pm. 2120g of stoneground wholemeal flour mixed with 1700g water - autolyze. (4 large overnight wholemeals - yeasted, not sourdough) Weight out all the flours/mixed into big bowls.
8pm. Start the mixing and kneading. One lot of dough to make 4 large and 6 small loaves (wheat based), at the same time (I have 2 mixers), dough for 4 large white sourdoughs. Then mix up the dough for the spelt by hand (4 small loaves, starter directly from the fridge). Mix up the dough for the deli-rye's by hand. Leave these covered on the bench.
Unload the big mixer to the bench - briefly hand-knead it (7Kg dough!) to shape into a large pillow and put into fermentation tub.
Unload smaller mixer (4 large whites), shape again and put into tub.
Load wholemeal into large mixer and start.
Load maltster (a granary-like mix) into smaller mixer - 6 small loaves and get it going.
Weigh dried yeast into wholemeals - 7g.
Mix up rye - it's a wet sloppy mix using a dough whisk.
Add salt into wholemeals
Unload smaller mixer - quick knead and shape on the bench and into a tub.
Brief hand-knead of the spelt and deli rye mixes. Leave covered with bowls.
Weigh out the rye loaves into tins.
Unload the wholemeal (mixer had been stopped for some time now). Brief hand knead to shape into a ball and into a tub.
Brief knead of the spelt and deli ryes and into tubs.
Make up croissant dough and into the freezer.
Top-up the spelt jar and leave by the side.
Wash up. This takes some time - cleaning the spiral mixer takes time as it has a fixed head.
Clean out the ovens - get rid of yesterdays dried/burnt flours, etc.
Put the rye loaves into bags and into the fridge, then the spelt starter jar. (the other jars were in the fridge at the start of the shift).
Move croissant dough from freezer to fridge. (Note to self, weigh out and flatten croissant butter at this stage).
Check worksheet to make sure I've really made up enough dough/mixes... Final clean up.
Zzzz.... :-)
This morning - alarm at 5:30. Got up on 2nd alarm at 5:35 ...
Started scaling/shaping at about 5:45. Ryes out of the fridge, ovens on... Got most on the bench and into the couche/baskets, then finally the big box of 4 larges and 6 smalls. Got that shaped and into the couche and baskets. Felt I was running a little slow, but hey ...
Ryes into the oven - not sure the exact time, but it was about 6:30 by now.
Prepared the laminating butter for the croissants and set to doing the laminating/folding. I have a pastry sheeter now, so I can do 3 turns and a final roll in one operation without fridging between turns. Cut and shaped the croissants and left them covered to prove.
Made up some little almond cookies from mix left in the fridge from 2 days ago. Cranked up the small oven and baked them off in that one.
By now the ryes were out of the oven and cooling - the Wholemeals and Spelt went into the Rofco. I think I then caught up with some email...
Then - round about 8am I think it was time to unload the Rofco with the spelt & wholemeals and load it and the Lincat up with the main breads of the day. Started to check the labels - I need to circle things like weights and best before dates, got those ready and the bags - 12 minutes after loading the ovens, I turn the heat down on the Lincat and open the door, and vents on the Rofco (I load the Rofco on the silicone sheeting, I remove this at this point) then a quick shower/change - unload ovens, egg wash the croissants and get them baked - start bagging & putting the loaves in the boxes - up to the shops, box and put the croissants & cookies - take them up to the shop. Back home by 9:15 to enjoy a coffee and the left over croissant bits. Send a humorous tweet out about having to recall the croissants due to them tasting too good then ... Well now it's time to clean-down the bake-house!
8 large loaves, 19 small loaves, 4 large tins, 3 small tins = 33 loaves + croissants/pain au chocolate & cookies. No major issues - croissants were on the verge of over proofing but I got them into the oven in-time. Might invest in a sprayer to do the egg wash with! Really pleased with the almond & cherry cookies as it's the first time I'd tried that combination. (normally I use a blob of jam)
The almond & cherry cookies...
A basket of laminated goodness :-)
I have 3 oven timers and google (speak: ok google set timer for 12 minutes)
-Gordon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3sOuEv0E2I
Drogon, and I sure got one. After all, you're the master when it comes to this :-). I'll have to read through this a bit more thoroughly but from what I got so far, I noted down the following
Ah, and if I may be so frank: can you pass me the recipe for the cookies :-)?
thanks!
alef
I aim for an overnight at about 18°C. right now that's on the floor of my "bakehouse" near the window. This is a converted barn at the side of our house (in Devon, England). In a few months I'll need to start to move some tubs downstairs (to ground level) when the air temperature warms up.
I'm using 30% levian in the dough - a basic loaf is 100g wholemeal + 400g white, 150g levian @ 100%, 285g water and 8g salt. Overall hydration 63%.
So (white wheat) levian out of the fridge at 3pm, bulked up (double white flour & water) and left covered, then mixed in at 8pm, so it's 5 hours old. At a pinch I know I can leave it until 5pm and its still active enough. I typically use the spelt directly from the fridge as 330g starter is enough for 4 small spelt loaves (1100g flour) Spelts a bit more lively anyway.
The almond cookies - They're out of Bertinets "Pastry" book with a bit of tweaking (a recipe for using up egg whites and I had some left over from making creme patisserie a few days ago) - for each medium egg white, it's 100g icing sugar, 100g ground almonds. Mixed up and put in the fridge overnight... Dust counter with lots of icing sugar and roll into long sausages about 20mm diameter, cut into slices, roll in more icing sugar, hand-roll into balls, put in baking tray, push thumb into ball and fill with jam or a glace cherry, or flaked almonds, etc. Bake at 150°C for 15 minutes or so until starting to brown... Chilling overnight and lots of icing sugar is the key. These are very sticky!
Cheers,
-Gordon
I'm building the levain over such a long period since I find it gets more oomph this way. And it's not a lot of work, so I don't find this to be a lot of hassle...
Hi Alef-
Sounds like you've got a good system down. I also run a small part time operation, doing 20-50 loaves for subscription each Saturday. I also have an infant and the following works well for me and, more importantly, rest of fam!
My main solution is to use a final 16-20 hour cold ferment/retard (44f) and bake directly in am. I use a converted freezer with digital thermostat for final retarding- it can hold 50-60 bannetons.
I feed my starters twice daily during the week, so the builds are really one and done. I really think this is the way to go, even if baking once a week.
I handmix all batches Friday morning. Most formulas use between 7-15% fermented flour and are reading for shaping after 4-5 hours of bulk/folding, depending a bit on ambient temperature. After I shape them, they retard at 44f (give or take) until the next morning when I bake them cold. Some get a little floor time before retard- mainly the whites- while a couple of whole grains with fast fermentations and delicate gluten, like spelt, I bake Friday night. I mix this general work flow up with a couple of overnight bulk retards for breads I shape Saturday morning. For whole ryes like vollkornbrot and rugbrod I mix starters Thursday night and bake Friday morning so they have a day to cure. I'm trying to work in some pastries and yeasted baguettes to line up but am not there yet.
Hope this helps and good luck with B & B
Sam Temple
firedogbreads.com
you're saying you have a converted freezer that can hold 50-60 bannetons? That sounds like a great solution. It must be a rather big freezer, a pro model with double doors I presume?. I have been thinking about a cold proof/retard, but don't have enouh fridge space, so that's why I'm doing a cold bulk. I think I can go to about 40-50 loaves if I'm doing bulk ferment in the fridge and shape the next day. And I don't think I'm ready to get into such a large freezer/fridge.
So far this works for me but I think to increase production even more i'd have to add one batch that cold proves/retards in the fridge in addition to the cold bulk fermenting loaves. I should really try this next week. I'll report back.
This weekend's experiment worked out quite well by the way although i underestimated the effect somewhat. I increased the amount of whole rye in the levain (I think from 20 to 60%) and it made bulk fermenting increase volume a lot more than usual, and it increased the sourness of the final bread as well.
do you use the steam trays that come with the b40? I do and like them but they do take away some valuable oven space. And what size bannetons do you use? I like the ones that fit 800-1000 gram batards best and from what i can see Drogon fits 4 of those on each stone, which I think doesn't work with the trays in place.
thanks again!
I really don't think I could fit them in with 4 large boulles (scaled at about 915g of dough) I'm almost tempted to get one though just to see what difference it might make to e.g. baguettes though than just steaming it via my pump-action sprayer thingy...
I'd have to change the way I load the oven too - right now what I do is put 3 big squares of the silicone sheet on the bench, tip the baskets/bannetons out onto them, then use a wooden loading board that exactly the right width of the oven to load them whole shelf at a time. With the steam pods in, I think I'd need to load it half at a time which will take longer...
-Gordon
One of the things I do to get in a little extra bread (and make a different set of customers happy) is to make some sandwich loaves. These can be baked in the small oven downstairs, so don't tie up the baking schedule with the bigger oven (the one with the granite stones in it). I will do Oatmeal Raisin bread (mix up this dough a couple of days before and leave it in a tub in the fridge until baking day), Struan, soft whole wheat sandwich bread or a Many Seed loaf. I can bake four of these at a time in the small oven set at 350F.
I will also bake any of the porridge loaves (and some of the ones with whole grains in them) the day before bread shop day, as they benefit from sitting for 24 hours. And I'll also bake English muffins and bagels the day before. Of course, English muffins don't tie up the oven at all, being griddled instead!
Alef,
The unit I use is just a standard 20 cf freezer, large but not unconventionally so. I have it in garage. I can fit two trays each of 6 bannetons/broforms on each shelf (10" batard or 9" round). The trays can rest directly on top of one another since the dough, scaled around 750g, doesn't breach top of bannetons. With a digital thermostat the unit works reasonably well though not as precise or stable as professional stuff obviously. The trays are bagged, which retains humidity, though I am not sure this is strictly necessary.
Bulk retarding seems to be really popular both at home and in pro settings. I prefer final retards mainly for convenience- it makes faster, more consistent bake in morning and I really hate scoring wet doughs at room temperature. I haven't found dramatic differences in flavor/crumb/volume- the main benefits of bulk retarding for me are building strength in weaker doughs and reducing surface blisters, neither of which are really a concern. I do bulk for two days a French style ciabatta dough but that doesn't really require shaping in morning. I've decided I don't like retarding for pain au levain but haven't figured out how to do a straight proof in am. Maybe long overnight bulk at room temp with really small% of starter? Speaking of retarding, has anyone looked at the new Bien Cuit book? I hear he uses ultra long cold ferments for his whole grains- whenever I've done this I either get overproofed or really sour loaves.
I don't use the steam trays- I can barely get four loaves on stone as is and, like others, I load on a board with mat, which requires using entire 19". Using big garden sprayer with metal wand is fine- not as good as professional ovens but good enough. I tend to treat the oven as more akin to wood fired oven and so generating massive steam is not necessary. It seals well. The oven has many flaws but none significant enough to prevent the baking of great bread-
Nice to hear how others have solved riddle of cottage production with modest equipment. Happy baking all
Sam Temple
firedogbreads.com
Have you figured out how not to overproof the loaves in Bien Cuit when retarding them? I have baked 3 different recipes and his times are definitely not working for me. The first loaf was so badly over proofed that I had to reshape and let proof again to rescue it. The other two were supposed to go at least 14 hours but one was over proofed at 5 hours in the fridge and the other one seemed just right at 5 hours as I got nice oven spring. My kitchen is cool (70f) and I am using 60 degree water as specified so it isn't that the dough is too warm going into the fridge. My fridge is at 41f so is that the issue? I probably should start another thread which I think I will do. =-)