New to baking - any advice on sourdough hugely appreciated!!
Having always been a keen cook, I decided about a month ago to emotionally give up the day job and invest in self teaching myself the basic course content of a professional pastry course. Along the way, I've realized that nothing makes me happier than baking bread (and that sugar confectionery is a bit too fiddly).
This week I tried to tackle sourdough. My starter seems to have done all the right things over 7 days of feeding up. BUT in the final stages (principally transferring the dough from my rather crudely made up proofing basket) the dough seemed to loose it shape and never rose fully in the oven. See photo.
My starter was 50/50 wholemeal and white bread flour, my sponge made from wholemeal, and everything else white bread flour. I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of % hydration in starter terms. I'd just been taking half away, adding in 100g of flour and enough water to make it sloppy (as per my HFW recipe). Would that cause trouble?
After I added the flour et al to my sponge, I left this for a good 4hrs in a warm kitchen. I seemed to get a decent rise, and then kneaded for 10 mins (timed). I was then planning to leave this again (in bowl, flour covered cloth, oiled clingfilm) for another few hours, but nothing had really happened, so I left this overnight.
It didn't look or feel right in the morning and kind of flopped everywhere. It never got back its shape. It has a really good flavour, and a great crust, and sort of OK crumb, but I'd really like to be able to produce big beautiful loaves.
If anyone would care to give me some tips or advice or even a really good recipe to follow, I'd be so very grateful.
One of the joys and frustrations of sourdough...
I make sourdough breads daily - make of that what you will.
Try this - take 150g of your mother/starter. Top it up with 75g of flour and 75g of water, put it back in the fridge (if that's where you keep it, it's where I keep mine). If you don't have 150g of mother, then take 30g of mother and add to this 60g white flour and 60g water and leave for 4-5 hours until you see lots of bubbles on-top.
Add to this 150g starter 100g wholemeal wheat flour and 400g white wheat flour (strong/bread flour). Also add 10g salt and 300g water. Mix this together and leave for half an hour covered, then give it a quick knead or 2. Shape into a boulle and put back in the bowl and cover with clingfilm/shower cap, or something to keep the moisture in.
Now you need to leave it for up to 9 hours in a not overly warm place. My bakehouse is at about 20-22C and I do this at 9pm and get up at 6:30am. But leave it until it's about doubled in volume. It may be quicker, so I'd not leave it overnight - yet. (and i'm normally making 4 of these at a time which might also affect things)
At this point, tip it out of the bowl, and shape it into a boulle/round shape. Transfer it into a proving basket/baneton/colander lined with a floured linen cloth if you have one. Let it prove for an hour or 2, then gently tip it onto a baking tray lined with some parchment and into a very hot oven. Score the top if you like. Throw a cup of water into the bottom of the oven (into a tray that's been in there, heating up) and bake until done. I do something like 250C for 12 minutes then 210C for another 20-25.
There is a lot more you can do to the dough, e.g. you'll read about hydrations, stretch and folds and various kneading or no kneading techniques, but this will get you a good loaf and give you a good starting point to work from. I make & sell 12-24 loaves a day using this technique.
One thing - weigh the flour and liquids. Keep your starter at the same weight flour:water ratio. It makes life easy when topping it up again.
Enjoy baking!
-Gordon
Thanks Gordon, really helpful.
Can I just clarify something? you said to take 150g of mother and top it up with 75g flour etc and then fridge. And then, 'add to this 150g of starter'.
Does es this mean I require 300g of mother/starter in total? Or is the '150g of starter' the one I've put in the fridge?
Take starter/mother out of fridge. Remove 150g from it. Use this to make the bread.
Before you put starter/mother back in the fridge, add in 75g of flour and 75g of water. 75+75=150. This tops up the starter/mother to maintain the same weight.
This means you need to keep at least 200g of starter/mother in the fridge so you can take 150g out of it, top it up then back in the fridge.
-Gordon
youre a star! Thank you!
I agree with drogon, weigh everything. For the typical 100% hydration starter, you want equal amounts by weight of flour and water. If you don't know already, you can learn more about baker's math here.
In my opinion, it would be easier for you to start with an actual recipe and preferably a lower hydration one of around 65% to 68%. Much easier to handle and you will still bake really good bread. Once you get that under your belt, then you can move on to a higher hydration recipe.
if you can't bring yourself to begin with a straightforward white flour loaf, at least stay as close as you're willing. This will let you see how your starter work without having to account for the effect of multi-flour mixes, add-ins, etc. It won't take long to get there if that's what you want, but you have established a baseline if you will, to see what happens when you change from say all white to replacing 20% with rye.
This is my recommendation, too. A basic recipe is still great, and hard enough on its own to master. It will be the foundation of many future recipes and something to fall back on. Cutting out variables in the recipe makes it easier to figure out what in technique or environment needs to be fixed. Chances are there will be a few things. In my case, fermentation temperature was the key. I may never have figured that out if I had been trying to learn on an advanced recipe.
Folks are super friendly in the Sourdough Section here. They are walking me through getting my starter rolling and I have read some really great threads about baking once established. You may want to pop in there to ask:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/forums/general-discussion-and-recipe-exchange/sourdough-and-starters
Good Luck