Troubleshooting gummy line at the bottom of the loaf.
I started baking bread about 10 months ago, and have been playing with different recipes and learning constantly along the way. I can make pretty good baguettes, good pizza crust, and a bread that tastes great, and has a great texture, at least mostly.
I have been using the same recipe for bread for the last 3 months, no changes. A line of gummy bread seems to happen at the bottom about 80% of the time. Sometimes, it isn't there at all the the loaf is very smooth all the way to the bottom.
Since it doesn't do it sometimes, i know it has to be something I am doing, and just not realizing it. I below is my recipe and process so maybe you all can see the error in my ways.
KA AP: 125g
KA WW: 187g
Milk: 233g
Egg: 60g (1 egg)
Sugar: 32g
Butter: 32g
Salt 6.5g
IY: 6g
* Mix the milk, egg and KA WW flour to soak and soften the bran for 3 hours,
* Mix KA AP flour in and let autolyse for 30 minutes.
* Mix in salt, IY, and sugar, knead until stage 3 window pane, txfarmer method. Add the butter about 2 minutes in. Usually around 13 minutes total mixing time at speed 3 in the kitchenaid.
* Bulk ferment for around 1.5 hours, doing a stretch and fold halfway through.
* Shape using the double roll method described by txfarmer, load into a 9x4x4 pullman pan and proof until about 60% of the pan is full, usually about 30 minutes.
* Bake at 350f until internal temp is 205f, usually about 35 minutes. I like to remove the pullman pan lid about 2/3 the way through the bake time. If I don't, it seems like the bread steams too much and the crust is more like baguette crust and less like sandwich bread.
As another note, I also make this bread with just white flour, and also I have made it several times using a sourdough culture with long cold ferments, still had the same issue. Any input is very greatly appreciated. Thanks!
It looks like the airflow/ hot spots in the pan are inconsistent. An easy fix would be to shape your loaf in to a regular loaf, but before placing it in the pan, cut it in to 4 pieces and THEN assemble the loaf as you normally would. In my experience this is the best way to get an even bake in a covered pan. For a white dough you only want to proof it 3/4 of the pan. With this 'cut' loaf technique you'll notice more spring so make sure your lid is heavy.
Cowboy, I think you may be on to something here with temperature. One thing I forgot to mention is that I leave my baking stone in the oven at all times, so I preheat my oven with stone inside, then when ready I put my pan in directly on top of the stone. I do this mainly because I don't have anywhere to put the stone so its just easier to leave it in there.
I think next time I bake I will try preheating the oven to 450f-500f to be sure the stone is extremely hot, and turn it down to 350f after loading the pan, or I will remove the stone before preheating.
Please delete the 2 posts above, I was trying to add some spaces below the last line and it took me hitting "enter" as me pressing "post"
So it was time to bake again yesterday, and I cut the loaf this morning. I did the following things:
* Used KA bread flour in place of all purpose flour in case it was an issue of collapse near the bottom.
* Used KA white whole wheat instead of red whole wheat, because I found some white I had forgotten about and wanted to use up.
* Reduced the butter and sugar by half. I have felt the last 2 times I made it that it was too rich and too sweet.
* Preheated the oven to 450 for 1.5 hours before baking, and reduced to 350 when the loaf was loaded. I wanted to be sure there was sufficient heat in the baking stone.
The new formula is:
KA BF: 125g
KA WW: 187g
Milk: 233g
Egg: 60g (1 egg)
Sugar: 16g
Butter: 16g
Salt 6.5g
IY: 6g
I did everything on the same timing as last time.
The loaf still has a very hard gummy line at the bottom and the crumb is more open at the top. You can also see I am getting contraction when the loaf is cooling. It is the correct shape when removed from the oven. I usually bake to 205, but the internal was 208 this time, presumably because of the higher preheat.
I am assuming because the crumb is tighter at the bottom and more open at the top that its a proofing issue, but I just don't know what to try. Any input or ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Can you proof upside down and then flip it to bake? I think that would really help even out the crumb.
I agree, but can this be done in a pullman pan?
dimensions of the pullman pan being used? And, if you fill the pullman pan with water to the rim, how many grams of water can it hold?
Where is the recipe coming from? When adding up the ingredients, I get total dough weight of 681.5g with more than half being whole wheat. Is the white flour recipe the same weight?
I can't help but think if the pan had a little more dough to fill it out, it wouldn't have to look so close to over proofing. With more whole grain flours, the amount of dough should be increasing to make up for lack of height for heavier flours. Am I wrong?
The recipe started as a 66% whole wheat recipe from Cooks illustrated.
It didn't use egg, and was for a larger pan (it baked nicely for me in a 9x5). I added an egg and started using the double roll shaping method after reading txfarmer's blog posts regarding shreddably soft sandwich bread, and saw a noticeable improvement in loaf volume and texture.
After getting a 9x4x4 pullman pan, I approximated the volume of the loaf that i was getting out of the 9x5 pan, and compared it to the volume of this pan, and adjusted the recipe accordingly. I don't remember the volume of the loaves from the 9x5 pan, but the volume of the "9x4x4" should be 144 cubic inches = 2359.7mL, however when measured with water it is 2225mL.
So basically, the recipe is a concoction of a bunch of different stuff from someone who has no idea what he is doing. :-)
If the issue is not enough dough, could I proof it less and end up with a more even crumb at the risk of not filling the pan all the way? I assume I should reduce the final proof in the pan time and not the bulk ferment time? Just a thought to test with. If this worked, maybe i could then increase the dough volume so it could fill the pan, despite less proofing?
Great input, so much to learn!
With more dough it will proof in less time and be ready to bake sooner. When the dough has risen enough (what did I read? 3/4 inch below the top edge?) then slide on the lid and bake it. I would at least try it.
The crumb shows larger bubbles near the top and compacted ones on the bottom, to me that is over-proofing or getting too darn close just to fill the pan. It can also mean that the dough hadn't fermented enough before it was shaped and risen. With white wheat flour, it is not uncommon to bulk twice for a fine crumb. Did the dough rise almost to double (first bulk rise) get knocked down and bulk a second time before shaping? Something also to think about. So it could be that there is enough dough to fill the pan but the bulk rise wasn't long enough so the second rise got too long, and then we see the large bubbles and the falling crumb compacting on the bottom. What do you think?
Do you have an elevated cooling rack?
At least 1/2 inch off the counter so steam can escape under the loaf?
A title to attract attention might get more comments into this problem. I'm not experienced with pullman pans directly.
Not enough bulk ferment and/or dough size. I only let the dough double when bulk fermenting. I will try doubling, punch down, double, then shaping and panning tonight, if that doesn't work I will combine that with increased dough size.
I do have a cooling rack, 1 inch elevation. I usually wrap the bread in a thin towel, and place it on the rack for 3-4 hours before bagging.
I just realized i forgot to answer your question about the white flour version. I think i used the same amount of flour, just reduced the liquid to bring the hydration down to 65%-68%. I think i have notes somewhere on what I did, I will look tonight.
So I mixed and baked another loaf last night. The only change a made was changing the bulk ferment and final proof. I proofed in a cylindrical plastic tub with "cup" markings on the side. I let it exactly double, punched it down, doubled again, divided into 3 and shaped with the double roll method and let proof until the pan was 2/3 full. I couldn't let it go till 3/4 inch from the top, because at 2/3 full if i poked it with my finger, it was filling back extremely slowly, but it would fill all the way.
I was very excited to cut into the loaf this morning, there was great anticipation! And we have......... a huge improvement!!!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VxZAsBurQvs/VP7WeMGBSyI/AAAAAAAAVBc/AJEOeUIB7LY/w1111-h822-no/IMG_20150310_073300.jpg for a larger image.
the gummy line is 100% gone!!! Contraction is less too, but still present. Also, a strange thing, there are many more holes present in this loaf. I noticed that after the bulk ferment, the dough was MUCH stronger than usual and I had a harder time knocking all the air out before dividing and shaping. I pressed on the dough and rolled it out as hard as I could and it still kept some air bubbles. I didn't watch the clock very close, so I am not sure If the total bulk ferment was longer or shorter than before, but I think it was shorter. I think before I was tripling the dough(or more) because I was bulk fermenting in a wide mixing bowl and I was underestimating whether it was doubled or not.
Thanks very much everyone for the input!!!! I will try shaping better next time and perhaps its time to try increasing dough size to alleviate the contraction unless there is something else I should try as well.
Now for the falling in sides, how fast are you un-panning the loaf when it comes hot from the oven? The faster, the better. :)
That goes back to mixing the dough. I have to think about my aunt. She made the finest tiniest crumb in her breads and she used a mixer. Just read a standard cookbook on bread making in 1970's. Start with the water in the mixer bowl and hand blend 1/4 of the flour to prevent splashing when the beaters start, then start the mixer and slowly keep adding flour, switching to a dough hook when the dough gets too stiff. Then tip out and knead until your hands drop off. :)
It was unpanned immediately. Perhaps some delay would be good?
Thanks, feels good to overcome an issue that's been plaguing me for a while now. I will change up my mixing technique next time!
Like sunshine! or a lift off your shoulders. No need to rush into a new technique. Repeat it a few times first.
Glad to be of help. Getting dark here and we also had a beautiful day! :)
You said you've had success before sometimes at the beginning. I know you've solved your problem but why are you putting the pullman pan on a baking stone? I'm just wondering if maybe directly on the oven rack would help with the airflow under the pullman pan and solve the problem without you having to go through the trouble of what you did. I had the same problem with my sourdough multigrain loaf in a loaf pan. I set it on a cookie sheet to bake and I'm thinking that was the issue and want to try again directly on the oven rack instead.