July 9, 2007 - 5:54pm
Vermont-GOOD
So this is what they do in Vermont!
Today I finished up a batch of Vermont Sourdough as modified by weavershouse provided by Zolablue. The Susan provided moral support and motivation. It was a little dry in the mix up and I think I'll increase the water a touch next time. I used 100 grams of clear, and the balance of the white flour was Harvest King and folded it just one time. I did the final rise in a cloth couche and baked on a sheet pan from a cold oven. Steam was 12 minutes with the vent blocked in the electric oven. The second image is what I was doing while waiting for the bake to be done. Thanks girls, I like this bread!
Eric
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Eric,
Looks like you have this baking thing worked out. I've clearly omitted some of the more important techniques, based on the second image. I guess it's back to the drawing board.
Very creative and unique slashing on the one to the left, there. Nice.
I'll have to do some of this VT sourdough, too, or feel left out of the party going on here on TFL with VT sourdough.
I do prefer having a little more water in this recipe than specified, too. However, I'm in danger of being accused of taking higher hydration doughs too far. I seem to always want the dough wetter, so maybe I should be reined in on on this higher hydration hangup I've developed.
Bill
They look like real works of art. I trust the taste is equally impressive!
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
I've never done this exact formula using Rye with the bread flour and a small inoculation. XMA, I've done similar and the one step mix many times. Once you get a good one step down cold it's hard to go back to a slower multi step. I do think retarding the poolish would help the flavor with this mix. That's for next time.
Eric
Eric, not only are your loaves beautiful but you sure do have the slashing thing down. Gawd, those look so pretty and I know they tasted yummy, too. I have made Vermont sourdough using two different approaches; one correct to Hamelman's recipe using the liquid levain overnight and one all done in the same day using extra of my firm starter and I could not tell a difference in flavor or texture at all.
This is really my favorite right now along with Bill's pagnotta recipe modified from Il Fornaio.
Tell me the truth, what do you really think about how the first clear flour makes the bread's crumb texture and the taste? Do you like it? Do you have any of the elastic band problems I encountered using it?
Oh, and I love your second image although I would have made it a red beer. (YUM!) Of course, you Wisconsiner's have no idea what that is. (heehe) I ordered one when I was up there a few years back and the waitress looked at me like I was nuts. :o)
I love what the Clear does to a whole wheat or rye loaf. Even a small amount is helpful in handling what is otherwise a sloppy mess. Having said that, I'm a little more stingy with clear when I'm making a french type bread. The KA AP and Harvest King are both pretty strong flours and don't really need much if any to do free form loaves. I'm not big into pan formed bread at the moment so I need good development to hold shape for the first 12 minutes. The addition of clear is probably cheating a little since you can wind it up like a tight muscle if your not careful! :>)
Eric
Gee, it must just be me. I thought I liked the first clear when I used it the very first time and the taste was fine so I thought I could put up with the rubber band syndrome by adding more water. When that really didn't make a difference, despite the fact I didn't really use a large amount, I just decided I would rather ditch that flour than to struggle and feel I would be forced to weep in frustration over a huge bowl of rubber dough. :o)
Maybe I'm just a wimp. Yeah, that's probably it. hehe. (I'm still going to try it when I make bagels - I simply must.)
Bagels are a great application for clear. I think that's what the old timers used to use as a standard. I added a little in the Ciabatta mix last week and when it finally went rubber in the mixer it was remarkable. You just wouldn't believe it was pancake batter a moment ago. The pizza dough was a little chewy which could have been my dopey skills in this area and the clear could have helped. I'll just have to try again and again. We love Pizza!
Eric
Eric, your loaves are quite spectacular!
To get a more sour flavor, try putting the loaves in the fridge overnight after they proof for about 1.5 hours at RT. I did this last time I made it and the flavor was very good.
Susanfnp
Is there a Vermont Sourdough recipe posted somewhere? I wasn't successful in finding one.
Eric, your loaves are beautiful!
Larry
Eric...your Vermont Sourdough is GORGEOUS and your photos are great too. Your slashing is the best. So did you love this bread enough to make it again?
Larry, I don't know how to put a link here to direct you to the recipe but if you go to my BLOG for Vermont Sourdough and scroll down you'll find the recipe. Zolablue was kind enough to put it on for Eric. Hope you give it a try. weavershouse
Got it! Thanks a bunch!
Larry
I gave the recipe a go, but used all wheat flour and rushed the process a little. The results were very good. The crust could have been a little crunchier and I don't know why it wasn't. I've been having some success with crusts lately. I'll try this again and give the dough the time it deserves to develop fully.
Great job Larry. Your bread inside and outside is beautiful. Looks delicious. Your crust is especially nice. weavershouse
That looks great Larry! The crust looks good to me and the color is perfect! A longer ferment will improve the after taste some I would think. It's always fun when they turn out the first time.
Eric
Okay... so as a beer drinker, I find it mildly offensive to insult Arrogant Bastard by filling it with St. Pauli Girl
;)
-Loafer
First I want to apologize if you were offended by my selection of beer. A very dear friend gave me the glass and I felt it was my duty to break it in with something tasty. Alas I didn't have any Arrogant Bastard living in the flat lands of America so I decided to use Guinness instead. Sadly, my son hit the refer last night and depleted my supply of liquid gold. So I did what any good Milwaukee boy would do, I chose a domestic mass produced beer that pretends to be a European ale. Actually I think it IS an Import but don't mess with my story! Today I plan to call around and try to locate such a fine establishment that would stock this excellent brew. I have heard many tales of how flavorful AB is and I will not rest until I have laid in a stock of my name sake!
Weavershouse, I am at the moment in final bulk ferment with an experimental batch of VT Sourdough. I thought I would take a stab at using the detmold 3 step starter build up process to get a more sour flavor. So far it looks like it's on schedule and performing as expected. I added a little wheat germ for extra flavor also.
Eric
Just on a side note .... St. Pauli Girl is the one German I would not drink if it was for free. This beer has nothing to do with St.Pauli or Hamburg - It's brewed in Bremen ... mainly for the U.S. American market. In my opinion, the few Germans who may have heard about this beer would not be inclined to fall for the 'unusual' marketing strategy.
Try Bitburger, Flensburger, Loewenbraeu, HB, Koenig Pilsener, Paulaner, Warsteiner ...
BROTKUNST
Eric
So I am the only one who favors Coors Light with tomato juice? You just can't beat it. Slurp! You guys and your fancy beers. (lol)
I'd be happy to buy you one ZB, but drink it, well, ah, don't think so. That's more of a "drink" than a beer. IMHO
Eric
(chuckle) Not a chick drink at all and my father would take acception to that although he thinks anyone who would drink Coors Light must have something wrong with them. Hey, we can't account for the taste buds we have, huh?
I also happen to love other kinds of beer including Guiness (love a good black & tan) and Newcastle or any good dark or caramelly beer. Not with tomato juice though. Red beer is very popular here and if you've never tried it you should. It is super with a big bowl of freshly popped popcorn. But that's ok, you can just miss out. :o)
I remember my shock and awe the first time I traveled through Wyoming and saw people (men and women) guzzlng *pitchers* of "red eye," aka red beer, aka something else I can't remember. Apparently, it's a favorite in many parts of the great Western states.
To which I can only say: Yikes.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
Forgive me having a little fun with the red eye. If I had a quarter for every one of those I drank in the mountains of Colorado, well I could buy me a nice red truck!
Seriously, I'm attaching a photo of my last batch of VT Sourdough that just fell apart. I'm wondering if anyone could tell me what happened to it. I did a 3 step preferment that sat in the firm mode overnight in the fridge. This morning I warmed it in a bath of 85-90 degree water for a couple hours. I dumped it on the counter and mixed in the salt and broke it up into little pieces and added the remaining 100 grams of water. Mixed it up and it was was more slack than the previous batch with exactly the same hydration. I let it ferment for another 2 hours, formed batards and covered it under a towel. When I pulled the towel back it looked like the flesh eating virus had been working away. I thought I would try adding more AP and knead it a little and let it sit some but it's proofing on the counter in just the same fashion as you see here.
Any idear's,
Eric
Hi Eric,
I would have guessed it's overfermented. Could you describe the steps you went through, including the times, temperatures, hydrations, amounts of starter, at each stage? I'd love to know, just to understand what led to the impressive photo. Sorry it came out that way, though.
Bill
... which is just another way of saying that it's overfermented. It looks like the dough got too acidic -- so much, in fact, that it broke down the gluten bonds and weakened it to the point that it couldn't hold the bubbles.
That's my guess, anyway.
I suspect you are right jmonkey and braith. I made a very active culture and didn't watch it carefully. Bill, if you look at the detmold 3 step, that's what I did except I retarded the 2nd stage after about 4 hours.
The 100% rye batch I did turned out pretty good for being a free form loaf and my first attempt at detmold. The family loved the moist and full of flavor crumb.
Eric
Eric .. two things: The dough may be too acidic or the PH-level is too low. This is not the same ! The PH-level may be (too) low without the actual loaf having a sour (acidic) taste.
Something done that line happened once when I added a small percentage of old sourdough bread (dried and ground, 7%) to a new batch of sourdough. The lowered PH-level was just low enough to break up the gluten structure.
From what you write it does not sound as if you simply 'overfermented' the dough, but the preferment may simply have developed a too acidic composition (you should be able to smell that) or the ph-level may have been lowered by a) the procedure or b) an ingredient
BROTKUNST
BROTKUNST
:) well, since beer is 'liquid bread' we are not quite off-topic here ... just in very 'high hydration'.
To be fair ... there are many very good U.S. breweries throughout the country. Unfortunately the 'liquid wonderbread' (Coors light, Bud Light, Michelob Light,...) in the US still dominates the market.
BROTKUNST
This is because I recently discovered I had been doing this for most of my breads thus causing myriad problems. I would see these fleshy looking things and sometimes they would be pulling apart. I have a perfect analogy but I don't dare say it here. You almost said it and it is in line with how Hamelman talks about learning to feel the dough and judging its readiness. I've learned lately that baking even a little bit underproofed loaf as opposed to over is far better. Don't feel bad, we all experience this and it probably won't be the last time.