June 30, 2024 - 5:13am
Sana Bread Machine
Does anyone have experience with this machine? I haven't tried mine yet, it's quite a learning curve! But if anyone could answer a few questions, I would be really grateful.
First of all, the recommendation is to knead for only three minutes and to bake at much lower temperatures than I usually do. Does this approach produce a good loaf?
Secondly, watching the videos on Youtube, the resulting loaves seem quite flat to me.
What would you do to make a tall crusty loaf?
Thanks
Sue
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Links?
Sorry Precaud, I don't understand. I'm new here. Do you mean that I should post a link to the machine and to the video?
https://www.juicers.co.uk/sana-smart-bread-maker-standard/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxgMfY8MvQ
I also downloaded the user manual to see more details. It's apparent versatility is it's most appealing feature. I come away pretty skeptical about it, for a number of reasons.
: 500 watt heating element is very small for that size breadpan.
: My experiments show that stainless steel, a poor absorber of radiant heat, is the least desirable material for loaf pans.
: The video shows a 60-minute bake, and yet NO top browning at all...
: 3 tbsp of veg oil in a loaf? No thank you. And it STILL stuck to the pan...
: The shape of the kneader blades and baking pan is not conducive to good kneading.
Personally, I'd pass. But if you get one, post your experience with it here.
Sorry, I missed that you already have one. My bad.
I think your concerns are spot-on. The video shows mixing but no kneading. The dough stuck to the paddles and never came together.
A dual-paddle machine does not necessarily deliver superior kneading and mixing. A well-designed pan with single paddle and strong motor will do it better and in half the time. But even then, not 3 minutes!
The larger the baking pan and loaf size, the more necessary it is to bake for a longer time at lower temps. Otherwise it will not bake evenly to the middle of the loaf.
And for me, I highly prefer the taste of loaves baked at higher temps.
If I were Sana I would pull that video... it's poor product promo...
Thank you Precaud, I bought it because of the shape of the pan, the two paddles and the programability and was very disappointed with the videos. I agree that they don't do justice to the machines versatility.
It looks as though I will be going on an interesting journey! I usually bake by hand but having a machine does save time in an emergency (I won't buy commercially made bread).
So, I will try a simple loaf to begin with but I will bake at a higher temperature and have longer kneeding and resting times.
I'll post my experience on here.
Have fun experimenting, Sue. You're an experienced baker, so don't abandon what you know works... bread machines don't perform magic! :)
The 850W is more in line with what I'd expect for that size pan. Odd that the manual says it's 500W...
PS - you won't get any top of the loaf browning with those large viewing windows... cover 'em with aluminum foil.
Thank you! I didn't know that the viewing windows would cause that kind of problem.
He's done a lot of experiments with this. I'd listen to him. You should be able to find a thread where he really goes into it, using the search box (it might take some patience).
TomP
Thank you Tom. I certainly respect his knowledge in this field and I will do more to discover the relevant posts.
Sue
Yippee did her Zo and posted some pics:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16300/why-use-bread-machine#comment-528623
and Jo-en did hers with the same results:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/73520/foil-over-zojis-window-3h-preferment-clas-dough
Zo's give a little better results than most from this mod because the domed shape of their upper chamber concentrates the reflection. But all machines with viewing windows will benefit.
Glass contains hot air at basically R=1 (50% loss, which is bad...), but is pretty much transparent at infrared (radiant, near 100% loss).
Hi Precaud... been pondering this problem and I do understand that installing the foil inside the lid would be the best solution - the results that Yippee and Jo-En had look quite amazing to me, And the underside of my machine-lid has screws too, but I am loath to try it because I'm wary of invalidating the guarantee.
I wondered about using heat-proof tape to stick it over the window? I have found some online which claims that it withstands temperatures up to 300 Centigrade and leaves no residue when removed. Could you tell me what you think please?
Sue
I understand your warranty concerns, Sue, though I don't think removing the foil if needed would leave any telltale signs.
Is the tape you found an uncolored, metal foil tape? Does "heat-proof" mean that it will stick upside down on a piece of glass and it won't fall into the bread when baking? And the adhesive won't outgas at baking temps? Those are the questions I would have.
--
Thank you Precaud, It is an uncoloured metal foil tape and I now think that it was a stupid idea of mine. It wasn't meant for food so it would be crazy to use it when I have gone to such extreme lengths to buy a machine which doesn't use teflon. Not the same thing but still could be a bad-move health-wise.
I'll probably under-bake a loaf and just finish off in the oven.
Hi Sue,
The Sana machine looks so sleek and beautiful as an appliance!
I watched the video and I think that 3min seems too short a time to get gluten development. Though I don't have much experience with all bread flour doughs, I would think 15-20 min of total kneading would be more in the ballpark ; also add the salt and yeast after about 8 min of kneading. The yt demo showed it was quite hard to get the baked loaf out of the pan. I like using parchment paper- that means a shaping step and loading it back in the pan.
I think having oil in your dough doesn't help to get an easy release after a bake.
I will be looking forward to your bm bakes!!
PS I bake in an older Zojirushi. Also be careful of the tape and like Precaud, I would worry about tape gassing at high temps.
Hi Jo-en,
I agree that getting the loaf out seems difficult. I am considering using cake-release spray before baking - but that might be a bit of a faff; removing the paddles, cleaning the pan and then spraying it then putting the dough back. A few too many interventions. I found online that some success has been had by simply removing the pan from the machine after baking and leaving it upside down on a board until cool. Apparently the stainless steel lets go of the loaf which falls out of the pan on to the board below. Something else to try...
I've decided against the tape - it wasn't meant for food so better not to use it....
Hi Sue,
I read that you have been using a Panasonic BM until getting the Sana. A good rule of thumb for the Sana would be to double the kneading time you used with the Panasonic. In my experience, the Panasonics are the best kneaders of all BM's by far. They must have patents on the shape of the blade and pan, because noone else copies them...
PS - my son (also a software engineer) was in and around Glasgow last fall and loved it... could easily imagine living there!
I had a go at making dough with my Sana and set the knead cycle to level 2 for 10 minutes using a Panasonic 50% wholemeal recipe, The results were only just OK but 3 minutes would definitly have been too short. a time They say in their literature that because of their efficient kneeding, only 3 minutes is necessary. I would tend to disagree.
The bread rose and baked well however and tasted good if a little bland - but then I didn't leave enough time for any flavour to develop.
Got to do a lot of experiments before I decide whether to give my Panasonic away.
My main reason for getting the Sana was the shape of the loaf pan (for better shaped sandwiches) but I really don't like the twin paddles which of course are necessary because of the pan shape.You can't do a fully automatic bake if you wanted to because the dough gathers around the paddles and forms two separate balls of dough... unless I'm missing something. There may be zero advantage in having this machine because it would be just as easy to remove the dough and proof then bake in the oven.
Uh oh....anyone in the UK want a nearly new Sana? There may be one for sale here soon!!
Sue, a couple variables you can play with.
1. If both mixing blades are synchronous (rotate at the same speed), how the blades rotate relative to each other will either push the dough toward the middle of the pan (blade points together) or pull it toward the sides (blade points opposite). Worth experimenting and see what works best. For Zo's, most recommendations I've seen is to have them pointing the same direction. With my dual-paddle Tfal, it's the opposite.
2. Two-paddle machines work best with larger batches of dough.
Did this bake release from the pan ok?
I'm curious, which model Panasonic do you have?
Hi Precaud :)
Sorry, disappeared down a rabbit hole for a couple of days and surfaced to find that the reply I thought that I had sent to you had somehow disappeared. Don't know what I did to make that happen.
Two ideas for me to try - thank you! I'll try out your suggestions the next time I bake and let you know how I get on. The trouble with trial and error is that you end up with an awful lot of bread and no room left in the freezer! I don't like waste so it has to be eaten, however bad it is, before I make more.
I didn't bake the dough I made in the Sana... I transfered it to another pan and baked it in the oven. I will have a go next time though.
My Panasonic is a 2501 and it has never let me down.
Why was your son in Glasgow? It is a great place for young people. I live on the Isle of Bute which is less than 2 hours from Glasgow.
Sue
What would we do without rabbitholes to jump into, for a day or two at least? :)
You guys in UK and EU get all the cool bread machines! I don't think the 2501 ever made it to the US. Maybe some day they (Panasonic) will give us a fully programmable model like the Zo's and Sana. The 25xx's come close...
Isle of Bute- what an amazing place! My son was in Scotland last October, a cooperative project with his employer, the University of Glasgow, and a philanthropic hedge fund. He travels a bit and this was the only time he's come home and said he could imagine living there!
Hi Precaud,
I agree about the PS as a kneader. If I were using the Zoji, I would knead 30 min but with PS 2550 I can just do 20 min. I think that with the 1 paddle and the base being squarish (and smaller in area?), more of the dough actually is kneaded and turned over.
And it's not just the Zo's, every dual paddle machine I've tested is like that. But companies still promote the fiction of dual paddles being better.
The placement of the "raised ribs" in the Panasonic bread pans is a big part of it.
My machine is 850W
It looks similar to the Zojurishi Virtuoso bread machine, at least at first glance. Same type of pan with 2 paddles, similar settings, etc. If you aren't happy with how your bread turns out in that one, I wonder if some of the Zo recipes would work better?
My Zo kneads dough just fine, your machine may do ok if you can play with the settings. I haven't used the Zo for making bread so much as I thought I would... Mostly because we prefer 70% or more whole wheat sourdough sandwich bread. The few times I used it for yeasted whole wheat bread, they groat overproofed and collapsed, looking like some sort of distorted soup bowl. 🤣 It was pretty comical.
As mentioned, it may not bake as dark of a crust as you prefer. I hadn't thought about putting foil over the window, may give that a try. Thanks, Precaud!!
I've been meaning to reply but got a little sidetracked, Your positivity helped a lot. I feel as though I have made a big mistake because of an impulse decision based on inadequate research. But that is a great idea - to look at Zojirushi recipes.
It it is difficult for me to return because I bought it from Spain so I have decided to make the best of it, celebrate the good and find workarounds for the bad.
Sue
Hello Su
Read this thread with interest - I have also recently purchased the Sana bread maker for much the same reasons as you. Its part of our kitchen teflon purge and also as a family we are eating an alarmingly high rate of sandwiches, so the pan looked a great fit. I decided to take the plunge!
I'm certainly somewhere towards the bottom of the steep learning curve that people mention for this machine, but I think I can see its potential. After a couple of disasters, I've made probably 4-5 decent enough loaves, but all have some flaws. Collapsed loaf, excessive steam to name a few...
As it appears that you have a few months head start on me, I was wondering if you had any tips, or could share any recipes that you have found work well so far. I tried to read the manual but found it somewhat impenetrable and there are so many settings its difficult which to know to alter to get the best results.
Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks