fresh milled flour not good for bread making?
My niece brought to my attention an excerpt from the textbook used in her upcoming baking class.
Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen, p58, states:
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AGING AND BLEACHING
Freshly milled flour is not good for bread making. The gluten is somewhat weak and inelastic, and the color may be yellowish. When the flour is aged for several months, the oxygen in the air matures the proteins so they are stronger and more elastic, and it bleaches the color slightly.
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I was very shocked to read this, especially after I insisted that my niece let me buy her a grain mill so she can make excellent bread from scratch. I don't have an answer for her.
Is the author referring to commercial kitchens and "not good" meaning too labor intensive or something along those lines? Or is fresh milled flour truly not what I thought it is.
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I don’t have a home mill but many of the bakers on TFL do and they bake incredible bread with their freshly milled flour. You can’t believe everything you read even in textbooks. Seeing is believing.
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But you can’t beat the flavour of fresh flour. We did pitas in a sourdough class using expensive commercial flour and flour freshly milled in a Komo. The Taste of the fresh flour blew the commercial flour right out of the water. There was no comparison! That experience is why I bought my Komo mill.
At Farine, M.C. said in her post: http://www.farine-mc.com/2010/01/building-levain-la-gerard-steps-2-3-and.html, " I remember from my classes at SFBI that flour needs to age for about 3 weeks after milling". In reply to a comment, she clarified that it is white bread flour that needs to be aged. Fresh milled is good to go.
I am with Danni. I much prefer the flavor of home milled wheat. So has your niece made any bread for you yet to taste?
BTW, I am not familiar with the book, but understand from this review it is a commonly used textbook, but covers many areas besides bread baking, and bread baking is not a big focus. book review
She hasn't made any bread just yet as we are still trying to figure out the Challenger issue (I posted about it another thread, I think) and whether it will fit in the Breville Air (and if it's recommended).
In regards to the challenger issue, the fit in the Breville is tight, however my son bought me a challenger knock-off
Dutch oven that just fits in. I understand the concern with safety and manipulating the challenger in the Breville. I have been baking bread in my Breville for one year now, with great results. My only complaint is the door does not seal in moisture very well do to the design of the oven. I have made loafs using a pizza stone and lava rocks to mimic a commercial oven, it was very interesting watching the loafs spring into action.
My whole family likes the flavor. It might be a little yellower than it would be after oxygenating a while. But if you like it you think of that as golden.
Also, to be a little Fresh-Loafy, so what if the fresh flour is slightly more difficult to work with - that’s why we practice baking.
My mill's output goes directly into the KitchenAid mixer bowl on to the top of the starter. That means it ages approximately 0.001 of a second. The other day my three-year-old grandson contemplating a sandwich and well aware of the selection of commercial breads on the counter said, "I want some of Pa's bread." He's now mentioned specifically in my Will. Commercial roller milled flour can be aged because the germ, which contains oils and can become rancid, has been removed. Following all the processing commercial flours have to have the nutrients that milling and processing removed added back to them. No thanks. I'll go with freshly milled flour for flavor and nutrition.
100% agree!
I believe proper dough development and fermentation are the keys to a decent loaf, regardless of whether the flour is freshly milled or not.
I mostly bake with freshly milled 100% whole-grain flour. Here are a few examples:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71297/20221020-simple-100-wholewheat-bread-clas
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/72493/20230617-simple-air-fryer-100-wholespelt-bread-clas
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68298/20210517-school-clas-wholegrain-cranberry-walnut-bread
Yippee
Yes! That’s the key! A good windowpane and the proper rise time, and I’ll add using good quality, fresh, plump grains. I think the textbook author should’ve consulted the good folks at TFL before writing that particular chapter. Lol.
Sounds like propaganda from the commercial bread mills. Seriously, I bake four loaves of sandwich bread at a time with 100% fresh milled white whole wheat. Never have I had a problem with it. (ETA this loaf pictured may be part kamut, as I do add some from time to time. Regardless, it’s 100% freshly milled and straight into the stand mixer.)
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Your loaf looks delicious and it is 100% freshly milled!
Would you be able to share your ingredients?
Thanks.
Yep! I’ll do a blog post on it, but here’s a pdf that I made a few years ago for one of my Facebook groups. It’s my regular everyday sandwich bread recipe, just converted to freshly milled. (I believe I upped the yeast and sugar amounts slightly over time.)
The quality of the wheat berries is critical. I got a Komo Fidibus XL mill in 2014, and originally I always used Prairie Gold white whole wheat. They always made such soft and light bread. But a few years ago, the company was sold and the berries I got after the sale were shrunken and dark colored. I could visually see such a big difference, and my bread wasn’t rising well and it wasn’t soft. I switched to Palouse brand white whole wheat, and their berries were plump, golden, and I was getting nice soft high rising bread again.
I buy kamut from Breadtopia. I’ve always gotten good quality grains from them, although they can be expensive.
Gluten development is also really important. I always knead in my stand mixer, and I always knead until I get a good solid windowpane.
Thanks for sharing your recipe!! I will be reading it carefully. I love working with freshly milled too. I had been buying Giusto's hard red wheat from a health food store but they discontinued special orders. Now I order from Azure Standard- 50 lb bag of hard red wheat. Their wheat grain is not as plump as Giusto's but it is still producing great bread. I use the Type II sourdoughs by rusbrot (clas, flas, thermophilic sd).
I agree with you totally on the importance of kneading!
You’re welcome, let me know if you try it! I haven’t done a 100% ww sodo yet, but I think that would be a fun experiment!
Thanks for sharing the recipe! I use the Palouse brand also. I'll check out Breadtopia as well.
My Mockmill Professional 200 should be here tomorrow, and I'm excited about making my flour. I've been sitting on that want for at least ten years and decided to buy a grain mill since I now have the time, and I also did not want them to be sold out.
I ordered my mill directly from Mockmill; however, it was shipped from Breadtopia. I checked Breadtopia's website yesterday and saw that most of their electric grain mills were out of stock, and the one I bought from Mockmill is also out of stock.
I think grain mills have been very hard to get ever since 2020. Glad yours is arriving soon!
You will love the grain mill. Mine came from Breadtopia too.
Have fun with the freshly milled flour- it is so good for you!
Thank you! It arrived yesterday. After running the rice through the grain mill, I ground soft white wheat berries and made cinnamon raisin drop biscuits. My daughter kept commenting on the flavor of freshly ground flour. She's a fan. I bake our b/pastas. It's safe to say that I will be using my milled flour moving forward. I plan to bake bread later today. It'll be my first time baking bread with freshly ground flour. I'm looking forward to this.
Fresh tastes so much better! Enjoy!
Hello, I used the "pdf" recipe noted in your earlier post. It turned out better than most fresh milled wheat recipes I've tried, however, the loaves did not rise enough. I halved the recipe to make 2 loaves. I became interested in wheat berries from the shelf-life aspect during Covid. I bake a lot of other breads, however, want to start making wheat that is at least close to what I purchase at the store in size, density, etc. I understand that home milled is far superior, however, I need to be able to make bread that rises to the size of a "normal" loaf of bread. I use a Nutrimill and Palouse fresh hard white wheat berries.
I'm really stumped, I've tried several recipes I found online, and the people make it look soooooo ez in the videos. I follow the recipe exactly and I STILL don't get bread that rises enough. I live in Northern Michigan on Lake Michigan, so my house is always cooler than most, particularly in Winter which is why I purchased a proofer. I feel like I'm doing everything "right", however, am clearly missing something....
I decided to ask you since your recipe worked better than most for me. Do you have any ideas...? I could go through the entire process but I'm not sure that’s necessary. The ONLY variables I can think of are how fine the berries are ground, the knead timing and the proof temperature and time. I use a Kitchen Aid to knead and feel as though I had a solid windowpane before I proofed. Those are the three things that no one in the videos I've watch ever really address.
If you can provide ANY insight it would be greatly appreciated.
How much did they rise? Did they look like the loaf in my pic? I also use Palouse hard white wheat. I use a Komo Fidibus XL mill on the finest (or pretty close to it) setting. I melt my butter but don’t warm the water, because my mill warms the flour a bit. I knead in a Viking 7 qt professional stand mixer (very similar to a KA) until I get a windowpane, and I proof at room temp (can be anywhere between 65-75° depending on time of year). I let the first rise go to double volume, but the loaves are usually just risen to the poke test (if you poke them, the surface stays indented). I wonder if your loaves were over-risen at the second proof? Did they look collapsed? I’m not sure what the problem could be, but I’m happy to try to help figure it out!
ETA are you using instant yeast? I use SAF instant.
Thanks for your response....
No, it doesn't look like your loaf. it's not nearly as high.
I have tried a couple different things since I sent the original message... The image is deceiving, the loaf here is 3" high, this is my latest attempt. It's your recipe with the addition of 1/2 teaspoon of Vitamin C powder and 2 tablespoons of Vital Wheat Gluten (VWG). I took 2 tablespoons of flour out and replaced it with the VWG. I also added 2 additional tablespoons of water.
The bread has a good taste and is soft, however, its the height that I'm lacking. My proofer runs between 75 and 80 degrees and the first proof is one hour. I have not gotten any of my attempts to double in volume during the first proof. The second proof the loaves rise a bit, however, not double. I use Fleischmann's Instant Yeast.
I knead with a Kitchenaid until I get acceptable windowpane which varies in time, however, usually it's about 10 minutes. I should probably try extending the first proof to see if I get any additional volume.
As noted, my bread is coming out ok its just that I am attempting to replicate the type of wheat loaf I can buy at the store. I understand and have read many times that is not always possible... Having said that, looking at your loaf and several other bakers loaves online I know that it IS possible, I just need to dial mine in somehow, hopefully sooner rather than later. I'll probably experiment with more VWG and a longer 1st proof.
Thanks again for your response!
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One time I skipped the step of getting a finer grind (of the fresh milled flour) and the resulting loaf was very dense and lost 1" rise.
I have a komo and the grind is not that fine (to me).
So I sift (20 mesh ) and take the coarse parts and grind it for 35 sec in a dedicated spice/coffee grinder. I saw this method on Youtube. For the particular recipe I use, that step was the only difference made in 2 bakes.
In a bread machine, I was getting this.
I hope this helps!
I'm not sure I can get my flour any finer than I have gotten it so far unless I try the coffee grinder method noted. Hopefully I don't have to add that step....
Your bread looks amazing!!
Thanks for your response...!
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71016/aging-oxidizing-freshly-ground-whole-wheat-flour
The consensus seemed to be that for best results, you should use freshly ground flour, add a bit of ascorbic acid of find another way to oxidize an otherwise less than freshly ground flour.
This idea isn't completely bogus. Richad Bertinet discusses this in some of his videos and books. But he's talking about white flour milled in bulk that's bought directly from local mills. It seems it doesn't have much to do home-milling of whole grains--any benefits to "aging" these would definitely be negatively outweighed by the resulting rancidity of the germ and the loss of delicate nutrients. And white flour bought retail has almost always been sitting around long enough by the time it gets to the consumer that it's irrelevant.
Hello, I am also new to bread making however I took the fast route. In the last 30 days I have spent over 5000 dollars on everything from a mixure to a grain mill and Dutch ovens etc.
I was pretty excited for the fresh milled grain and I have purchased hard spring hard red hard white soft white and some other grains.
I do not find the flour I make better than what I bye at the store. The hard white has the best gluten the spring red should be better than the winter red.
I know this was 4 years ago but I would be interested in what you have come up with.
Can home made flour make good bread? I also thing the flavor of fresh milled is under developed.
Can home made flour make good bread?
You will find dozens if not hundreds of posters on this site who will answer "Yes!"
You could also look through the blog pages at breadtopia.com (note: they also sell products):
https://breadtopia.com/blog/
I'm digging the Information on the wheat berry blends. Thanks so much!
This post on The Perfect Loaf is also right on target -
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-freshly-mill-flour-at-home-for-baking/
That article is a bit basic but I did read it through. I use a mechanical sifter and I have 12 through 100 screens. I use 80 for what I call my 00 flour. I use 60 for most everyday stuff. I do find the bran to flour ratio was better at 50. I seem to remove a lot at 60.
I have a sana mill which I might return because the motor over heats with oily grains. It's a 350 watt.
I mill just past 50% for the first pass.
Temps 95%
second pass I mill about 3 clicks from as far fine as it goes.
I get up to about 135.. not great...but I haven't found away around it yet.
Then sift at 60 and we'll probably Get too much removal.
Seems to be that you should use freshly ground wheat flour the same day it is ground, if not it needs to be aged. An alternative is to add an oxidizer like ascorbic acid.
Rye berries need to be aged at least 6 months after harvest for best results.
Thank you, I'll look into aging and I donuse most my flour day one but of course some slips over to 2 and 3. I've wondered what people add to flour to consider it a 72 hour proof flour.
I'll look into ascorbic and the other additives like malt powder and protien.
I assume all my berries are about 6 months but that's a good point I should buy berries and let them age and then buy more and always pull from an aged source of berries.
For 72 hour proof the trick is to get it into the fridge before fermentation has proceeded too far - that way the pH has not yet come down and most of those 72 hours happens then at the cooler fridge temperatures before protein break down.
Rye grains need aging, I have no info on wheat or other grains.
Rye grains need aging? Are you talking about aging the whole berry or aging the flour after milling? I use freshly milled rye and have found no issues in doing so. I'm curious as to the issues.
So my stomach doesn't do well with hard red wheat. I can't tell if it's healthier than hard white. It does have a flavor I enjoy for some stuff like pitas.
Rye I have only fed to my sourdough monster I keep in the kitchen.
However... I have a friend that has much older grain than I do. He and I both have realized difference in his older hard red.
You can mill wheat berries and then sift out the bran, add proteins and I believe develop proteins for a more elastic dough.
However, I think the aging Rye was about the grain not the milled Rye flour.
It's probably similar to soaking grains in acids like lemon juice to ferment the berry before milling. Idk if I'll ever do this, however for people that have issues with stomach issues on hard wheat. You can ferment and the dry before milling.
I imagine the flour would be most interesting.
berry = grain
Sorry I commented, guess I was just confused
You good, your question about rye was kinda what I was wondering about as well.
This bro with the berry don't equal flour is nonsensical.
I freeze freshly ground flour immediately. That way it stays fresh indefinitely and is always on hand.
Grinding on demand is not practical with my mill but with a freezer in the kitchen it's more efficient to grind a few weeks worth at a time anyway. You might think that the flour being cold would be an issue but I find in practice it doesn't make much difference, especially when blending it with room temp AP flour, though I guess you could also let it warm up before mixing too if you wanted.
I think that's probably best. I might look for a mini freezer that can fit bellow my cooking counter. Find some more ergonomical flour containers.
I've been baking with fresh flour for at least a year now. It was challenging in the beginning, but you come to understand it.
At first, I thought, no, there's no way I can get a similar rise to normal whole wheat, let alone white wheat, but I was wrong. You really have to play it by ear, you simply cannot follow a recipe and say it'll work. For instance, the variation in gluten between my hard red wheat and hard white wheat is absurd, and then there is spelt, and all the others. It's simply a lack of skill. It takes time and patience and becomes almost an art form rather than a science. There are so many factors to weigh in, that while you can dial them all in, there's still a bit of improvisation required.
The following photos are half freshly milled hard white wheat, and that slice is from the edge of the loaf, so it's a bit smaller than the center pieces, the crumb was unbelievable, the flavor... unbelievable. Even slathered in PB&J the bread itself shone through so greatly... and there are visible, large chunks of bran in the dough... Between the "inferior gluten development" and the "huge bran particles to slice the gluten" I like to think I get a pretty nice spring. At this stage in my baking, unless it's a very traditionally white flour bread, I am essentially stuck on AT LEAST 50% freshly milled wheat, but I do dip down to around 25% at times...
Healthy and whole. I've pushed this loaf into maybe 70% freshly milled wheat territory. For further photos and experimentation (I bake this bread every single week amidst all the others) I will try a 75% freshly milled set of loaves, and I will post everything about what I've done with the fresh flour for it.. I left all but the largest pieces of bran in, I sifted to probably a #10 or so, which I always do simply to fluff the flour anyway.
I felt this same exact way when I started milling, it's strange how little info there seems to be on this topic. Even what's out there is nebulous at best and never seems to provide a proper understanding.
Unfortunately I don't really have any tips, I don't really autolyse if it's half fresh wheat, and any less, MABYE 30 mins or so, I bulk ferment for probably, average of 4-5 hours, then my dough ferments often for 5-6 hours in shape at room temperature, then I'll place it in the fridge overnight, and take it out when I'm ready to bake, I tend to let it ferment a little longer once I remove it from the fridge, I don't put it in there at a perfect proof, a little earlier... It's perfectly fine to put the bread in the fridge shaped at an almost perfect proof though. But yea, just... You kinda gotta express yourself a little bit when it comes to fresh flour, you can't copy other people nor recipes particularly well... Believe me, I've tried!
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What a fine-looking loaf! And very wise words, too.
Yeah, there probably endless books or someone's dad that knows everything. The internet has information I just lack the knowledge and xp I'll get there.
My biggest errors so far has been water content and gluten. I've been using a winter red that has low gluten and spelt which doesn't have a lot.
Also finding recipes that start with grain and not flour.
Understanding what wheat to mix and how much of each.
And proofing proofing proofing.
Your bread looks spot on!
I use a Salzburger mill and it grinds very finely for me. The fluffiness of the resultant loaves is quite similar to any whole wheat or at times, white wheat sandwich loaves, that you can buy from the store, depending on the type of bread. Obviously, for things like croissant, or whatever else very fine, I don't think I'd bother trying even once! I can definitely sift down to pastry flour though and see the various different particles still.
But for real, hearth-like, hearty, staple breads, it's just worth it.
The claims of inferior gluten do have merit, my dough is always sticky for a while, it's very sticky regardless of hydration at times, especially the specific hard red wheat I use. The other thing about large mills is that they simply have access to analytical technology, and combine many various harvests after sifting into a single batch in order to hit specific, repeatable (and expected) protein % numbers... It's a total crapshoot at home, every grain kernel can be a different % and we have no access to such feats.
Regardless, you must ask yourself and only yourself, is it worth it... the learning, the failure, and ultimately the flavor and healthiness that can in fact come from the challenge, the connection to our ancestors, who while they did in fact have access to expensive sifted white wheat, often consumed coarse whole wheats. It is worth it to me.
I don't agree with this professor at all. Fresh flour is the best to bake with. Fresh baked bread is said not to be as easy to digest and should be consumed somewhere around 48 hours after it's baked. Listen to your own body. Eat it fresh if it doesn't bother you, or wait until later if you digest it better.
Happy Baking, KittyJ