The Fresh Loaf

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I need help analyzing this crumb

Borqui's picture
Borqui

I need help analyzing this crumb

I am struggling to determine what my problem is here, is it over/under proofing, over/under fermenting, or perhaps a combination of the two, or maybe something entirely different?

The dough appeared to have risen quite a bit during the bulk fermentation and very little while proofing in the banneton. It was also quite loose when I was shaping the loaf after the bulk fermentation, much, much more so than it had been during stretch and folds.

Can somebody please help?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Why do you think there is a problem?

Borqui's picture
Borqui

Ilya Flyamer, it seems to me the crumb is quite uneven, some large alveoli and quite a bit of very tight crumb with little in between. I have been struggling with this issue ( and more) for a few bakes (this is only my 6th or 7th freestanding sourdough bread).

I am having a very hard time determining appropriate ferment/proof times; most baking blog/channel/book recipes call for fairly long bulk fermentation time, perhaps 4-6 hrs (such as Tartine and many others) and short proofing time, while many online recipes (such as king arthur baking) call for very short (2-3 hrs) bulk fermentation and long (2+ hrs in room temperature) proofing times. I tend to stick to the former, rather than the latter, strategy, but I do it quite blindly, with little practical understanding of cause and outcome.

(By bulk fermentation time I mean the time from adding in the leaven to the time of final shaping.)

Don't you think my crumb needs improvement? I think I have done better in the past, at least my crumb was better/more even/more open, perhaps the dough strength was quite poor, but I have already managed to resolve the poor strength issue, while I am not satisfied with the crumb. What do you think?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I see. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it all depends on your preferences - how open, even or not you like it, etc.

If anything fermentation wise, it might be a little underproofed, so you could extend it a little more. Make sure to degas well when shaping, if you don't want large holes.

Borqui's picture
Borqui

Ilya Flyamer, thanks, I'll try that.

I don't have an issue with large holes, as long as there are enough medium-sized holes as well. What I am not happy with, is there being just large and tiny holes with very little in between.

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

SMALL HOLES vs LARGE HOLES.....

Is it that you really only have SMALL fermentation holes.  The LARGE holes all appear to follow the rolling from shaping. If that is the case, then they are just pockets trapped during your shaping (or remnant pockets formed pre shaping).  

The large hole (top left) that appears to go well back into the loaf is a bit of a tell tale sign that the crumb hole sizes are not just rising... 

If the crumb texture in your loaf is actually just tight, then varying the mixing time may assist. I actually go for the fine texture so longer mix times assist me....HOWEVER, if you are after a more typical open crumb then shorter mixing (while maintaining gluten development) may also be worth trying.

Borqui's picture
Borqui

therearenoten, Thanks for your advice, but I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "shorter mixing time while maintaining gluten development" -- does this mean maintain the number and sequence of stretch&folds/laminations/coil folds, but just shorten the intervals, in order to shorten the overall mixing time prior to the undisturbed bulk ferment, or do you mean to just cut down on the number of stretch&folds/laminating/coil folds?

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

It depends on how you mix your dough - so the comment was speculative.  

However, a reducing in basic kneading (or mixer time) - supplemented by additional rest/stretch&fold cycles to supplement whatever quantum of gluten development was forgone.

Of course, if you are an all no-knead baker then it is about adjusting the process.

For when I have time and really want that supper fine crumb, my mixer can do over an hour and still not overwork the dough - it's like hand kneading. 

Borqui's picture
Borqui

therearenotenou...,, thanks.

I work the dough by hand, I knead shortly (2 min?) after adding the leaven, maybe 5-7 minutes after adding the salt, then one stretch&fold, one lamination, and 3-4 coil folds, the last of those being ca, 3 hours after mixing in the leaven. Do I understand correctly then, that your suggestion would be to cut down on the initial kneading and perhaps being more gentle during the subsequent handling?

therearenotenoughnoodlesintheworld's picture
therearenotenou...

If you are doing those time by hand, then you are already quite minimal.  SO my comment is probably mute for your issue.  

General rule of thumb the longer the mixing the finer the crumb.  But given your mixing process, I would then expect the issue you are trying to solve is more likely in the proofing stages.

CalBeachBaker's picture
CalBeachBaker

Here is some info from Maurizio Leo the author of The perfect Loaf book and website.

I find this guide and the screenshot from his book to be helpful in evaluating the degree to which my dough has proofed.

Tony

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/guides/proofing-bread-dough/

Borqui's picture
Borqui

Thanks, Tony! Great reading! Plus, I have just gotten the book on Amazon :)

Based on that, I would think my read is a little underproofed. Do you agree?

I just don't know what is the relationship between adding bulk fermentation time vs. adding proofing time.

CalBeachBaker's picture
CalBeachBaker

Yep, If it tastes bland-under it's probably under proofed.

This is how I understand it - bulk ferment where you do stretch and folds to build/align the gluten structure and shape the dough, and then final proof where you let it rise.

I hope that helps.

Tony

Borqui's picture
Borqui

I'll give the next batch longer proofing time.

Borqui's picture
Borqui

A month of trials and tribulations later and I am finally satisfied with my crumb and shape. Thanks to all of you who have helped me with your comments and advice!

tpassin's picture
tpassin

That picture looks wonderful. Could you share what you have learned, please?

TomP

Borqui's picture
Borqui

Well, tpassin, there is no short way to answer, no short way to go around all the past pain and frustration. But, in a nutshell, once I had some better tools to examine my crumb, i.e., Maurizio Leo’s website guide and book, and a rough idea I am likely underproofing and not overkneading my dough, I started reading more: I bought Trevor Wilson’s Open Crumb book and some others. Also, I have learned the importance of paying attention to dough temperatures and learned the “feel” of correctly fermented dough. I have also learned (by trial and error) how to compensate bulk fermentation shortcomings with preshaping and banneton proofing, But I imagine you must be familiar with all these, so no new discoveries here.

One big discovery, though, was when I came across the “Two stage method” (https://thesourdoughjourney.com/what-is-two-stage-bulk-fermentation/) and the associated video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOfIAgyCy8). I use this method now, with great results – it gives me the freedom to fit proper fermentation and proofing into my (lacking) schedule (I am running two businesses and have pre- and grade-school kids). I have actually found that for most open crumb breads I make (this also depends a little on the starter I use, i.e., a 100% hydration rye starter and a 50% hydration bread flour/whole wheat starter), the type of whole flour I add to the bread flour (wheat, rye, spelt, einkorn, emmer), and the temperature in my kitchen, I need to add ½ hour up to as much as 1½ hour room temperature post-shaping proofing time in the basket, before putting the basket into the fridge. I now feel fairly confident I can set this time by both how the dough feels during shaping and room temperature proofing, and what temperature it comes up to.

I have also learned about bread flours, the protein content and the "W" strength index, I have found the combination of flours that work for me (I use Caputo Tipo Uno and Caputo Manitoba Oro in about 1:3 ratio, plus 15 to 30% of whatever whole grain I want to use), but I still don't have the confidence to start experimenting with other types of flour, particularly the ones that have failed me before, even though I know there is a way to bake perfect bread with them, too, it's just that I still don't know this way. Well, this is something to look forward to.

I love sourdough rye breads and once I opened my eyes to bread baking books, I got some fantastic recipes, but these are not for open crumb bread, so they don’t apply here.

I have baked high hydration, no-knead rye sourdough breads in bread pans for years (this is a no-brainer, even my 93 year old, walker-bound mother bakes these almost daily), but my foray into open crumb and free-standing breads is only two months old, to the day. Looking back, this was a ton of pain and frustration, but it feels so good to have built some confidence now. I love these breads, I love fresh bread, I bake pretty much every other day, and I only hope I am not over obsessing about it!

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Thanks, Borqui!  Your journey will I hope be an inspiration to others.

 

TomP