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Montreal Style Bagels

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Montreal Style Bagels

Woman does not live by rye or barley alone.

So this woman decided to follow suit, when she saw that a lot of other bloggers on The Fresh Loaf were having fun with bagels. I have a formula for Montreal-style bagels from my instructor at baking school. He got it, scribbled in pencil on a brown paper bag, from bakers at the St. Viateur Bagel Bakery where they've been supplying bagel lovers since 1957.

First, I had to scale back the formula. St. Viateur makes almost 10,000 bagels a day at its main location, so the original formula is a big one. It uses 40 kilos of flour, which they make several times a day. At school, we cut that back to 5 kilos. I thought I might manage with 1 kilo at home, which would produce just a baker's dozen. Even so, my poor Kitchen Aid mixer was straining. I quickly moved to hand kneading after the dough came together.

I'll publish the recipe below. There are two significant differences from others I've seen. Firstly, no salt. That always surprises people. I never know how to answer. Either the baker forgot to write it down, or it's what makes this particular bagel extra chewy and delicious. I don't miss it -- not a bit. Secondly, no proofing. At all. You can even skip bulk fermentation, if you let the bagels rest in the fridge overnight after shaping. Or production can be a continuous process after bulk fermentation where you go directly to dividing, shaping, boiling and baking. Then eating. :)

Here's the dough after 8 minutes of kneading:

bagel dough

You can see the stiffness characteristic of bagel dough.  I flattened the ball to a circle about 2" high and used my bench scraper to divide it into 4 oz. wedges. These, I rolled into strips much as Jeffrey Hamelman describes in Bread. As you handle the dough, it becomes smoother and more pliable.

I hadn't made these in over two years, but it was coming back to me. (Don't stack them like that...argh, they'll stick together. Oh yeah, keep a spray bottle handy to mist them or remember to cover with plastic while I process the rest. Wait a minute, no dusting flour...best worked on a damp surface!) The stream of consciousness continued, as I talked myself through the vague memories that my hands recalled better than my brain.

shaping bagels

Then came the boiling and seeding. We never worried about colouring the water much. A handful of brown sugar or some malt syrup if it was handy -- just enough to help gelatinize the starch on the surface in a tasty way, making the bagels smooth and shiny. The dough already has sweetness from malt extract. Today, I used about 2 T of brown sugar in the boiling water. I love sesame seeds, so I used them for most of the bagels and coarse salt for the rest.

boil n seed bagels

Here's what they looked like at half-time on my baker's half sheet pan in the oven. #13 of the baker's dozen got squished. That's okay. I found they needed extra time to brown properly. So near the end, I divided them between two smaller sheet pans without parchment and jacked the heat back up for about three minutes. Did the trick.

bagels at half time in oven

Who's got the cream cheese?

    fresh from oven

Montreal Style Bagels

1 kilo bread flour (about 8 cups)

2 grams instant yeast (2/3 tsp)

40 grams sugar (3 tbsp + 1/2 tsp)

9 grams malt (4 1/2 tsp)

50 grams egg (1 large)

463 grams water (scant 2 cups)

2 1/2 tsp vegetable oil

Scale or measure out all ingredients. Blend dry ingredients together in mixing bowl. Add wet ingredients and mix until dough starts to come together. If using a stand mixer, change to hand kneading at this point rather than strain the motor of your machine. Continue kneading until developed fully. At this point, you have some choices. The instructions that follow are for continuous processing. If you want to incorporate overnight retardation, see my two replies to Michael below.

Cover the dough and give it about 45 minutes rest on your counter, aka a period of bulk fermentation. When the time is nearly up, put a large pot such as a Dutch oven full of water on to boil and throw in 2 T brown sugar or some barley malt syrup. (Honey or maple syrup are fine, too.) Divide the dough into 13 units of about 113 grams (4 oz) each. Roll into strips and shape as bagels. There is no need to proof the bagels once shaped, but keep covered and/or mist so they don't dry out. Place on a sheet pan beside the pot of water. Process 6 or 7 at a time, however many will comfortably fit in your pan, moving them around in the water periodically for a minute or so. When ready, they float. Remove back to the sheet pan, and put the next batch on to boil.

While still damp, dip the boiled bagels in your preferred topping and place on a second baking sheet which has been lined with parchment and sprinkled with cornmeal. (If you have a hearth-style oven, the bagels may be placed on a peel or other loading device sprinkled with cornmeal and transferred to the oven to bake directly on the hearth. The technique with a wood-fired, brick oven is different again, one with which I'm not familiar.)

Bake out completely until a nice, golden brown, about 20 minutes at 460F. Reduce the temperature after the first 10 minutes, if your bagels are getting too dark. As mentioned above, I had all 13 bagels on a baker's half sheet, roughly 17" x 12", and they weren't quite baked through where they touched. I transferred them to two smaller sheet pans without parchment and gave them an additional 3 minutes. There was a lovely smell and a small bit of smoke when I opened the oven door. The bagels were perfect!

Comments

Jmao's picture
Jmao

First, thanks for the recipe. I made these today and they turned out great. 

I read through many of the comments, and I wanted to add a little more to the conversation about water, mass and volume. The conversation was a great example why weighing ingredients is so much better. I've been doing a lot of recipe writing as of late, so I've learned this the hard way...and while I think we all agree that "a cup of flour" is a somewhat meaningless amount for so many reasons...but it can be as meaningless for most anything else as well.

There are at least 4 different "recognized" volume amounts that represent a "cup". If you ask google, for example, "1 cup in ML" it will give you a little tool to enter different values to do conversions. There are pulldowns on the two values, and you can choose from different capacities like a teaspoon or a cup or a tablespoon. You may also notice (and it's inconsistent depending on where you are and how you ask the question of google) but there is the US Cup, US Legal Cup, Imperial Cup, and then there's the Australian Cup. A US Cup is equal to 8 fluid ounces. A US Legal Cup is 240ml (which is 8.11537 fluid ounces). An Imperial Cup is 284.31ml, and an Australian cup is 250ml (and sometimes 240ml). So, none are the same...

Which cup you use can vary depending on the set you own, and where you bought it (or where you live). Interestingly, if you search the Australian version of Amazon for cup measures and measuring spoons, you find a couple different variations. Some cup measuring sets have a 250ml cup while others have a 240ml cup. I've even found a set that had a 240ml cup, and a 125ml half cup?! More odd (to my US brain anyway), Australian spoons usually include a 20ml spoon that is sometimes labeled as a tablespoon, and you'll find references that say an Australian tablespoon is 12 to a cup (ie 12 x 20 ml = 240 ml) as opposed to our usual 16 per cup (ie 16 x 15ml = 240ml).

I'm curious if in Canada is the standard for a cup 250ml? I saw in OPs comments a note about a 250ml cup would weigh 236g (which isn't actually true...but a US Cup of water is 236.588ml, so it would weigh 236.588g).

All that to say, happy baking! Weigh your ingredients because as we are a global community, the one thing we should be able to agree on is that a gram is a gram...but what a cup is...who knows?! :)

 

My sesame seed Montreal Bagels

My poppy seed Montreal style bagles

yjbus's picture
yjbus

what temperture did everyone use for the water in the dough? room temp? warm? 100 degrees?

painterman's picture
painterman

Always room temp for me. This is not a fussy dough. I proof in oven,

lights on for 60 min. 

yjbus's picture
yjbus

speak for urself... ive attempted this 4 times and can't get it right.  i just don't see how that small amount of yeast could handle that amount of dough, and sure enough, my first batch was a dense ball of starch with no rise at all.    i doubled the yeast and got something resembling a bagel but meh overall.  i was using active dry yeast, so i decided to use instant and follow this recipe to a T and once again, zero rise and my dough was super dry.  im now on my 5th attempt, with double the yeast and a bump in hydration.  

KxRjsWpO's picture
KxRjsWpO

Never had an issue when following the recipe exactly.  Room temp water.  Occasionally need to add a splash more water to get it to combine properly, but I assume that's more related to humidity in the air, etc. 

Not sure what to suggest, but the bagels are ultimately supposed to be pretty dense and shouldn't rise quite like a NYC bagel. 

yjbus's picture
yjbus

increasing the yeast and hydration helped a lot and the bagels turned out like the pictures posted here.  they were delicious out the oven but my issue is, within 30 min they tasted like slightly dry, slightly stale dense bread... i remember buying st viateur bagels years ago, bringing them back home in a paper bag and eating them 48 hours later, toasting them and they still tasted 90% of what they did fresh.  they had a certain soft, plushness that these just don't. im not sure..

painterman's picture
painterman

I think a lot depends on the type of flour you are using. Best to us a HP flour at least 12.5 present unbleached. I proof for about 60 min. There is not much rise. I follow the recipe as outlined but I upped the sugar to 60 grams and a generous 4 t of oil. To be far I always freeze the bagels , micro for 36 seconds and toast. There is a you tube vid that uses the exact recipe but his dough has a very large rise to it. I suspect he added a lot more yeast to the recipe. I do boil for 60 seconds with honey in the water and for what ever reason during the winter months they always stick to the bottom of the pot at first, then with a gentile wiggle they float to the surface. This style of bagel is not soft and plush. I have made the direct comparison with Montreal style bagels and although not exactly the same very very close.If I can be of further help please post. 

yjbus's picture
yjbus

thanks for the reply. yeah its still a work in progress and yeah ive watched that youtube video 10 times lol.  i was also doing a 4 min "soak" in 180 degree water with light brown sugar cause I ran out of honey, because thats what the instructions told me to do but I think thats incorrect.   I didnt realize how you boil them makes a huge difference in the final product.  my first batch I used honey and got good browning while all my subsequent batches I used light brown sugar and got poor browning so all these recipes that say use whatever you have on hand I think is bs.  also, soaking for 4 min I think really stunts the and internal crumb structure and I also think makes the crust way more fugly.  I'm gonna go back to honey water and do like you with a 30 sec boil per side.

KxRjsWpO's picture
KxRjsWpO

Definitely use honey (and lots of it). And it should be boiling, not 180f.  St. Viateur does 3-5 minutes of boil.  That's what I do and it works perfectly.

Seriously though, following the instructions yields nearly identical to St. Viateur bagels.  See my photos above.

Boiling: https://youtu.be/XbheLXfyUxk?t=54

yjbus's picture
yjbus

it looks to be under a boil though...  and I did follow the recipe to a T and it didnt work for me.  what brand of flour are you using btw? I'm in america using KA bread flour and find the hydration too dry to make a workable dough.

KxRjsWpO's picture
KxRjsWpO

there's a later point in that video where you can see the water boiling - other videos too. And they always talk about it being boiling honey bath.  You're right though, it's obviously not a big deal if it's a bit under a boil, but 180 vs. 212 is pretty big difference.  Beyond my knowledge, but I can imagine there might be changes happening to the sugars or proteins for example at the higher heats.. Bagel needs to come out feeling like a big cooked noodle. Maybe that isn't happening at 180?

I'm also in the US and usually use KA Bread Flour and KA Non-Diastatic Malt Powder. I have used other brands without issue. I spend a lot of time kneading to get everything combined right when doing by hand (now I mostly use a Bosch mixer). I make sure the flour/sugar/yeast/malt are well mixed before i add the liquids, which I've also made sure to mix well prior to combining.  Sometimes I do need a few extra drops of water, but really not much when I do.  I also get a fair amount of rise with 2g of instant yeast and 45 minutes of counter rest.

 

yjbus's picture
yjbus

ok ill give it another shot with ur pointers

yjbus's picture
yjbus

I'm also curious watt the difference would be in boiling in a rolling boil vs just under a boil. 

painterman's picture
painterman

I can never maintain a rolling boil. Once the dough goes in the temp will drop. Not a big deal.  Boiling bagels  effectively sets the crust before it goes in the oven. The water doesn’t actually penetrate very far into the bread because the starch on the exterior quickly gels and forms a barrier. Bagels are typically boiled for 30-60 …

Yippee's picture
Yippee

 

Hi Carol,

Thanks to you, Montreal-style bagels are now part of my repertoire. Here are the bagels from my first attempt:

Aside from replacing some flour with sourdough, I adhered to your no-salt formula and the brown sugar water boil. I will also experiment with other tweaks suggested in the comments.

Best, 

Yippee

jo_en's picture
jo_en

I really like the look of these! Did you use any clas?

 

I'll bet lox and cream cheese will be super with these!!

 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I don't bake without CLAS nowadays. This was an inspiring bake. I can already envision the techniques I learned being applied to my other bakes.

Yippee 

jo_en's picture
jo_en

I have never even thought about bagels before but this has several interesting facets.

Thank you for sharing your recipe!!

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