3rd loaf attempt still going wrong :(
3rd attempt and it's still going the same! All my loaves look like flat discs and have crumb separation at the top, you can see the pyramid shape too where I 'slashed' it (with scissors, no razor blade), and it collapsed. This is after I've taken lovely advice from a previous post :(.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is overproofed right? Having taken previous advice and from hours of researching I followed all the possible videos on shaping and building dough strength. I created my surface tension, there was a beautiful windowpane at the end of bulk.
I was definitely overproofing previously but I still don't get what's going on, process below.
Maurzio's: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/best-sourdough-recipe/#tasty-recipes-11311-jump-target.
I did an overnight levain instead, fed my starter 1:5:5 the night before and used 75g as recipe states. Made an autolyse as instructed too. I used the slap and fold technique to incorporate the starter, then rested for 30 minutes to add the salt and extra water. Did a lamination fold after this, I also took a sample for my aliquot jar. Calculated my hydration to be 80% (is this too high? But my dough holds up very nicely?).
3 sets of stretches and folds and 3 sets of coil folds (bit more gentle near the end) every 30 minutes. Then I rested until it had been total 5 hours of bulk fermentation (from when I added the starter). The dough was kept in my oven with the light on, along with my aliquot. I had all the signs of a good bulk and none of overproofing. Aliquot had risen about 25%, dough had lots of bubbles on the top, few on the sides. It was doming nicely at the edges, and when stretching a small piece had an AMAZING strong windowpane. Cute little wobble too.
Pre-shaped, no tearing, it came out of the bowl cleanly. Rested for 30 minutes then final shaped, making sure not to use too much flour, degass big folding bubbles, and creating surface tension. Dough didn't spread too much, as I've experience previously. Then put in a bowl lined with a towel and rice flour (not a banneton xx) and stuck in the fridge for 13 hours. I like to think it passed the poke test, but the dent didn't completely fill up, hence why I'm thinking overproof?
For baking, I preheated my oven to 250C, with a baking stone in the middle, and a roasting tin on the bottom. I took my loaf out and it was the least it's ever spread, so I was hopeful. As soon as I cut it started to spread and my heart sunk. Slid my loaf in, poured boiling water on the bottom and turned oven down to 230C. Steam bake for 20 minutes, and there was definitely enough, I could see it rising from the oven vent even at the 20 minute mark, then another 25 minutes until I was happy with the crust colour.
I've taken all the advice I've been given but am still not sure what stage is going wrong! Is my fridge too warm? Should I stop bulk earlier? Is my shaping that awful? Is my oven too hot? Please help!
The recipe is relatively high hydration (91% if no water is held back), which is more typical of ciabatta or focaccia than it is for a hearth loaf. Maurizio notes that this is a very wet dough and suggests that not all of the water be used if the dough shows signs of being too wet.
The baking instructions also call for the use of a combo cooker or Dutch oven, which he may rely on to help keep the dough from spreading excessively while baking.
If it were me, I'd cut the hydration back to 80% or less, depending on the characteristics of the flour being used. If the flour had a high protein content, maybe a higher hydration would be manageable. For a "medium protein" (whatever Maurizio means by that) flour, I'd definitely want less hydration for what I would view as a medium protein flour, such as an American all-purpose variety.
I don't see that you are doing anything you shouldn't. It just looks to me that this recipe has far too much water in it for the type of bread being made. Keep in mind that I don't know what flour you are using, so that will also have an effect on how your bread turns out.
Paul
Thank you so much for your response! I did hold back water, totalling 345ml, which including the levain hydration brought my hydration to 80%. My dough wasn't very loose or wet, which I credit to my flour (12.8% protein), which is a UK bread flour. I say this is my 3rd loaf but it's actually my 8th. I'm not really counting the first 5 attempts as I made them with a flour which, upon a quick google search, people generally struggle with in sourdough. It turned into a soup every single time! I learnt from experience what a difference flour makes.
It's reassuring to hear I'm not doing anything really out of place, I'll keep experimenting, thanks again!
After making mostly rye loaves for a few months, I decided to make a couple hearth loaves this weekend. I happened to turn to this exact same recipe. The loaves are sitting in the fridge finishing their cold proof right now.
I found this to be a challenging recipe. I’m a pretty experienced baker (though no comparison to many members here) and I found the shaping difficult. Not sure whether it’s my technique or whether the dough was not as strong as I thought. Scoring will probably be a nightmare. So you definitely should not beat yourself up for having trouble here!
That is definitely reassuring! Shaping does definitely get difficult with the higher hydration, even at 80%, never even tried the full amount of water!
Hi Yumni.03
you should reduce water about 20% when using Maurizio's recipes. If his hydration is 80%, yours should be about 60%.
His flour is super dry and absorbs a lot of water, because he lives and bakes in Albuquerque where air is exceedingly dry. Relative air humidity there is only 14%(!!!) which means his flour has only 5%moisture. Compare it to average air humidity of 70% in Britain. Your flour is moist, about 15% moisture content, and cannot hold as much water as Maurizio's flour.
That is the cause of all your troubles, really - his flour is dry and yours is moist. 80% hydration is impossibly high for your flour, so, in the end, what you are baking is closer to high hydration focaccia - a flat bread which needs to be docked, not slashed prior to baking, to avoid those bubbles under the crust, than to a French loaf (batard), and should not be slashed at all.
Oh my gosh this is eye opening!! I'll definitely reduce the hydration, I had no idea about all these variables in environment! Thank you so much, and yes, Britain is very wet
I think you got this dead right. I was baking frisbees, very extensible but not elastic. I started holding back some water (just enough to pick up all the flour in the levain and in the final dough) and finally got a loaf rather than a disc.
When I took the first loaf out to bake it, it stuck to the banneton and I had to bang it on the counter to get it out. (I usually use the cloth liners, but wanted to try the plain banneton this time.) Scoring was ok because I had put the loaf in the freezer to firm up, but it went into the oven like an ugly puddle. Much to my shock, it sprang right up in the oven and looks quite decent! So the initial flattening might not be a problem…
Good to hear your loaf turned out great! Wish that luck on me some time soon :D
Are going about it very systematically, so I would be surprised if you did not have success very soon!
Whoops, not ciabatta? Have you tried waiting to do those fold sets after the bulk shows some rising? Maybe a couple of hours after mixing up the dough? After gas bubbles start to form and still inside the 5 hour bulking time.
I also can't see much wrong with the bread. There have been plenty of times when I just skipped scoring because the dough surface was moist and stretchy. Scoring is optional.
Interesting channels made by gas bubbles rising from the bottom and collecting under the top surface. To me that means shaping was too early for the density of the dough. This technique is often employed to make a bread with a hollow middle like some pita breads.
I do like myself a ciabatta :D Bread is always tasty anyway! I've never heard of delaying strech and folds, what's the difference?
I've come to the conclusion I probably shaped to early/underproofed. I'm glad you mentionned pita because I've had mixed success with those, maybe I'll get it right next time, thank you!
divide and shape early on, that is if you want a balloon effect. :)
It looks like you've gotten some good answers here, and the bit about the relative humidity is a good one. But I just wanted to chime in and say that the description you typed out of your process is very detailed and I cannot think of a single thing you are doing wrong. When I saw that you were using an aliquot and also watching the dough shape while bulk proofing confirmed that you are paying very close attention to every detail and I can only imagine the frustration you feel when things don't turn out like you are hoping, especially when you are being so careful.
If you were to look at my post history, you would find some threads that I posted where I was completely, completely bummed and became embarrassingly dramatic. But in the end, I solved my issues and eventually got great loaves. With your calm demeanour, I think you're about to hit gold.
Best of luck!
Cheers from Canada!
This comment is lovely, thank you so much! Very reassuring too. I really do love the process and am looking forward to the day I get it right. Wish you all the best!
Did you try again? I have a new batch proofing now. This time I tried to develop the gluten more thoroughly in my mixer at the beginning.
As an economist, are you more interested in the microbiology of sourdough culture or the macroscopic properties of the dough? Or maybe the marginal productivity of mixing (which of course has diminishing returns).
Are you able to supply enough bread to meet the demand?
Next time I want to lull my intermediate micro students into a restful slumber, I will make all my “real world” examples about bread baking :)