The quest for MY perfect french bread.
Hi, I've been reading a lot on this site for a long time. and finally found some things that have helped me today on my quest for the perfect french, for me.
To me I want a thin crispy crust and a light airy crumb.
As you can see by the photos below I almost have what I want but the crumb is tight and small. I think I rolled too much air out of the dough using a rolling pin.
So here is how I did this today.
Mixed all ingredients in my mixer for 8 minutes.
600 gm flour
420 gm water ( 200 was used to initiate the yeast for 15 minutes with a table spoon of sugar)
1 Tbls salt
1 Tbls Sugar
1 Tbls Active Dry Yeast
Pulled out dough, kneaded it for about 2 minutes and put in a bowl with a coating of oil and covered with plastic wrap. Let rise for 1- 1-1/2 hours.
Punched it down and folded it a couple times.
Then split in half, and start rolling with a pin to make a sort of rectangle of sough to which I then rolled it into a log shape for the loaves.
placed in the french bread pan and SCORED BEFORE the final rise, and then let rise for 1 hour.
Heated oven with pizza stone at 450°. Put my aluminum cover pan in as well to heat. Just as the final rise hit 1 hour I put it in the oven and sprayed the inside of the cover pan with water for steam and covered. Sprayed the inside of the oven as well.
1-2 minutes later I sprayed again inside of cover pan and oven. Did this 1-2 more times.
Removed the cover tin at 10 Minutes and the loaves looked good!
See 1st picture.
Baked for another 15-18 minutes until the loaves were a nice brown. Checked temp inside and it was 200-210.
pulled out and let cool.
The it seemed like they deflated a little, they seemed much rounder in the 1st photo, but deflated while cooling.
After 1 hour I cut an end off and it was still somewhat moist inside and a bit dense. Buttered it anyway and it was good, but still NOT perfect for me.
The oven was still pretty warm inside so I put the loaves back in to dry out a bit.
After about 30-45 minutes I pulled them out and they were really good.
Nice crispy crust(it was at first when I first pulled them out but softened up due to the moisture inside the bread)
The crumb was a bit dryer to my liking and not moist or gummy/dense.
I'm pretty happy with today bread as my last 2 times I over proofed and they both fell/deflated and made a flat mess.
I think I almost over proofed again but I did the poke test. Poked and filled up almost 3/4 of the way back. that was the first rise. I then rolled it and shaped. Did the 2nd rise and put them in the oven.
So Today I think I should have:
1) paid more attention to the rise and where it was by poking it.
2) not rolled with a pin, but maybe folded and then shaped with my hands instead of rolling the hell out of it.
3) Started with a higher temp such as 500, then reduce heat to say 400 after removing the cover tin so that it could bake longer and reduce more moisture in the crumb, and possibly NOT deflate upon cooling.
ANY help or suggestions, is much appreciated!
:). Type and amount, please.
I knew I was forgetting something
1 Tbls of active Dry, Fleischmann's
It does not look like there is much volume increase from the bake, it could be a sign of a fermentation problem.
I have used those steel baguette pans before without great results but I am getting good results (after correcting my fermentation approach) nowadays by placing the dough directly onto the baking steel/stone.
I actually like the rolling pin shaping method as it would produce a croissant like lacy and uniform crumb structure.
I think if you have a fermentation problem sorted out and get a good oven spring you will be happier with it.
had great volume doubling in each rise. But as I said in the post, they seemed to deflate AFTER I pulled out to cool. If you look at the first photo of the dough after I removed the cover tin they looked great, puffy and round. End product looks less than round and smaller.
It sounds more like an over fermented condition to me, something I would do in the early days (not long ago actually) of my baguette making. I don't remember what is the mass of a tablespoon of dry yeast but it sounds like a lot for a couple of baguettes. With more yeast being used you will have a lot less time to ferment the dough. Nowadays I only use about 0.1% of instant yeast for my baguettes and that gives me about a 3 hour window from the time yeast get into the dough to the time the I put them into the oven. Nonetheless, perhaps use less yeast next time or shorter the time to ferment the dough, every situation is different so you will have to experiment with it to find what works. By the way, the crumb looks pretty good to me, good job with the bake.
Yeah I think you are right. I'm used to making "no Knead" bread wiht only 1/4 tsp of yeast for 500gm of flour. with an overnight ferment.
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Loaves would benefit from proper scoring as well.
https://youtu.be/3QdzHuhJ-ls
maybe down the road but I don't think it's going to help wiht my more pressing issues. :)
and I've watched that video before, good video, thanks
I'll take it that you want some bigger holes. Ditch the rolling pin. Enjoy!
yeah this is what I was thinking. folding rather than rolling
Just shape into a log, no real folding necessary. Keep an even distribution of dough is all that's needed. By the way, nothing wrong with the crumb, but I'm not a big hole fan. Enjoy!
It's in the nature of these threads that eventually commenters will mention every possible thing a baker might do differently, so take this with the usual grains of salt, but:
1. Most baguette recipes involve quite a bit more kneading than you report.
2. Those of us who lack steam ovens are really handicapped when it comes to baguettes! Yes, we can make steam in the bottom, but our ovens are generally designed to vent steam, and no amount of clever pans or volcanic rocks are going to come close to what a professional steam oven does. It's the steamy opening-up during baking, in which the crust doesn't set early and the middle of the loaf has room to expand when the heat reaches it, that really makes this bread different. I've come to the conclusion that if I need serious steam I have to bake under cover. (and even then it's not the same as a real steam oven) The closest I can come to baguettitude with my standard home oven is a baguette-shaped ciabatta. Which is a different bread, but excellent in its own right.
The kneading was done with the dough hook, right?
and I bake under cover and spray with water, I typically get good spring.
Here's TFL user and pro chef Abel Sierra shaping baguettes, at the 5 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7urD4QwQe7Q
His formula is different, but the shaping method should still apply. It's in Spanish, but hey, you can still watch/see what he does. ;-)
HTH.
thanks!
I'm looking for more of a loaf than baguette bu that helps,.
Ah. So you are seeking the "not-a-baguette type of 'French bread'." I should have let my first comment stand.
it looks like knead longer, shorten the bulkrise, shaping sooner and one punch should be enough before dividing. Folding might be giving you that fine crumb. (Which I like too.) I do think a different score would help as the current score is like a corset preventing expansion in width. How else are the bubbles going to expand?
Still looks very tasty. I eat po’boys frequently and just got a smaller version of your French bread pan. I had to get an Al stainless one to avoid nonstick.
As ming said, much lower. I think if you're looking for open crumb, you would benefit from using much less yeast, like a 1/4 teaspoon, then slow retard the dough making sure you've mixed / kneaded well. If you look at the cross section of the loaf, it's pretty nicely risen so your question of over-proofing, well, it doesn't look overproofed which would be risen the deflated loaf.
Good news is you've hit the right place for advice !
slow rise for how long? 18 hours?
If you cold retard using about 0.5% instant yeast for about 6 hours and assuming you kneaded well, that should get you to a position where you can really coax a good crumb. From that point your oven routine will be important but it sounds like you doing well in that area. 18 hours is really overkill, although it's nice to push dough for longer periods for fine-tuning flavor etc, but in your case, since you are in the early stages of baguette's, I wouldn't waste time on extended times. Maybe try mixing your dough in the evening, then get it into the refrigerator so that by morning you have something to work with. Getting a good baguette with open crumb just takes a lot of repetition and determination and there are plenty of people here who've been through the trials and tribulations ;)
ok so here's where my confusion comes in. Using 1/4 tsp of yeast is like doing the no knead bread thing I am already used to doing. You don't knead it, you let it ferment for 14-18 hours and then fold a couple times, second rise and then bake.
So when you say use that much yeast I'm thinking it needs more time to ferment and rise.
No, you need to think of yeast as a rate of fermentation, which means the more yeast you use for a given dough size the less time you have to work the dough. You would want the fermentation to peak in the oven not before that. Counting those fridge hours with room hours of fermentation can be tricky as that depends on the temps. Nonetheless those score lines did not open up much means your baguettes did not expand much in the oven, which also means they were already over the hill before being baked.
So with the no Knead bread you use 1/4 tsp of yeast and let it sit for 14-18 hours and let the gluten network create.
If I use the same amount of yeast for these and knead it by hand or dough hook, what is the kneading doing?
The the time to ferment is hat the yeast does in terms of eating the sugars and creating flavor? As well as the gluten network to create?
kneading = moving proteins around to link up and form more gluten, moving yeast around to mush into more food to feed it
Why stir anything or shake anything? Agitation
It's not all or nothing.
This thread seems to be getting kind of off track and into the minutia. That's not a bad thing but soon this could become a discussion of molecules and covalent bonds !
- Kneading just mechanically speeds up the water absorption right and from here gluten strand development. You could otherwise just no-knead as you mention. What I mean by well kneaded just means that you've got good gluten development and ready to move on to fermentation and shaping. In the case of baguettes, no-kneading is not really the way to go because this is not ciabatta (slabs of unshapely dough that is glutenized mostly letting it sit and absorb water). You will be shaping this loaf and so, you need to mix it just right to be able to move onto fermentation and shaping.
- Lots of yeast up front produces too much gas too fast and you usually end up with foamy crumb as we see in your picture. Start with a little yeast and let it slowly populate the little nucleation points that reside in the dough after mixing it all up.
Also, I don't fully agree that because your scores didn't open is a result of the amount of yeast but anyone who knows my schtick here knows the next bit. Exploding scores is more due to your oven routine, how you load, how you steam and just the general ability to produce 'oven kick'. It doesn't help that your scored sideways. If you had have scored longitudinal, there just might be some burst here and I say that because you have as nice round cross-section.
Bottom line, just make a $#I+ ton of baguettes and rely more on repetition and experience. This loaf does not come together overnight or even in a week or month. It takes tons and tons of practice ;)
If I could *heart* this I would. :)
Thank you.
Thank you.