May 24, 2021 - 11:20am
Rye Chops - where? (while here: fave cracked and pumpernickel)
I know it's been raised before, but I didn't quite find a resolution. One member here who appeared to have a business and provided small quantities, appears to have gone out of business. Online providers either provide cracked rye, or confuse cracked rye and chops, calling them the same thing.
So, wanting to make a number of the levain ryes in Jeffery Hamelman's book. Looking for both cracked and chopped rye, as well as your favorites sources for pumpernickel. Preferably the same place for all 3. Thanks.
Paul
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Within recent memory, I purchased rye chops at the KAF store in Norwich, VT. They're not listed in the website but an email or phone call should get you an answer about availability.
New York Bakers has a good selection of rye flours and cracked rye available for sale. The business has been a good source for many Fresh Loaf bakers.
Thanks, I'll give them a call. Thanks, too, on the reminder on New York Bakers. Central Milling is always on my radar but I recall now many here really like New York Bakers.
As a side note, was on a Trevor Wilson video bender late night - he was grinding up some rye on a lark and I guess No. 10 on the MockMill 200 makes "perfect pumpernickel." Getting pretty geeked about the prospect of milling at home.
Much appreciated.
Paul
Do it.
😁
A few more words....
I love my Mockmill. I have space for it on the counter, and use it 2-3 times a week easily. If you are interested in home milled flour info, Dave put together a very helpful summary. See if this raises or lowers your interest level, lol.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64863/7-things-about-freshmilled-flour
Along with the books mariana tempts me with, I am letting it be known here and now, if after acquiring a mixer and burbling my joy at newfound breadliness, I simply disappear,
My wife did it. All walls lined with cookbooks (I am truly afflicted with CAB, cookbook-acquisition-syndrome. Thanks mariana), in our time full-size cheese caves in our bedroom, cask ale taps and firkins in our LR, full brewing micro- and QC lab downstairs, dozens of yeast banks crowding out, you know, food in our fridge, uh, yep, the book(s) and mixer might mean my end.
King Arthur no longer carries rye chops (as I found out the same way you did and then inquired with an email). On the other hand, I found this place (Wild Hive Farm) and was pleased with the service. They have a variety of grains including rye chops.
Happy baking.
Ted
Janie's Mill in Illinois has the confusing cracked rye/rye chops:
https://www.janiesmill.com/rye-products/p/cracked-rye-chops
The ones I received looked more or less like steel-cut oats, if that's what you're looking for. The coarse rye meal I received from New York Bakers looked more like "crushed" rye berries. Many of the berries were almost whole.
I have not been able to locate steel-cut rye, which I believe would be most like rye chops.
https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-steel-cut-cracked-rye/
They're using both terms too, "steel cut" and "cracked." There is a close-up photo which shows good detail.
Presently, organic is in stock, and non-organic is out of stock.
Wish I could leave an emoticon. Thanks for all this guys, I'll check them all out.
To be truthful, I have not baked with chops very often, because I've only tried to "make them" and always done a very poor attempt at emulation with a board and one of my chef knives. I have tremors now so, uh, yep. Forget it, useless, mess...
I have used cracked rye quite a bit and love them. Given they are different and Jeffrey Hamelman will call for both, can anyone tell me more about their respective qualities - organoleptic impressions, baking process, etc.? So close they carry very similar qualities, and cracked is for all intents and purposes a good substitute?
Thanks again.
Paul
Paul,
Baker's Authority is a good source for rye chops (finely chopped and bolted, Conagra Mills) and pumpernickel (Ardent Mills).
https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/rye-chops
https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/rye-meal-pumpernickel-flour-5-lb
Bob's Red Mill is a good source for cracked rye (coarsely cracked, not bolted, it has both very coarse and finer particles and dust).
In the US there is no grading of cracked/chopped rye as in Germany, for example. German millers and bakers differentiate at least 8 different grades of crushing - 'cracking' of damaging grain - from whole rye kernels, then come slightly crushed/cracked ones, then fully rolled, then several degrees of chopped (from super large particles, to large to medium to fine to extrafine particles), ending up with coarsely ground pumpernickel flour (gritty to touch as in semola or semolina rimacinata flour in wheat milling) which is different from whole rye flour (this one is silky to touch).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrot_(Getreide)
They are illustrated on the cover of this book and inside as well and different strategies for cold and hot soaking are provided for each grade of cracking/chopping/milling before incorporating them into bread dough.
Perfect! Thank you Mariana, you've inspired me to want to learn more. Rye has traditionally been a strange creature to me but it's becoming of deep interest - and I'm long overdue on paying homage to my wife's Estonian family's love of the grain. I'm afraid I'm limited to French (well, and kitchen German - worked for a N. German chef at one time and some stuck), but even so, I WANT that book. Searching, it appears unavailable? Any good tips on looking it up?
ps: just picked up La Boulangerie Moderne, Your discussion of the history of trois levains and mention of its' covering Professeur Calvel sold me.
Paul, go to your local library and place an order for an interlibrary loan for that book. They will bring that to you within a few days from whatever US or foreign library.
I happen to own my own copy. I got it when I was refreshing my German reading skills back then, when it was published, about 10-15 years ago. But for you, the interlibrary loan is the way. Maybe they will provide you with a digital copy, who knows.
I guess you would be able to photograph, scan or copy otherwise some information from it for your own use after that.
Here's the table of contents:
http://thomas-marie.com/en/livre/schrot-korn-pumpernickel-brotlanddeutschland-band-3/
Here's WorldCat data for six copies, However, I am sure some copies would be found in the University libraries or Congress Library in the US or Canada as well.
https://www.worldcat.org/title/brotland-deutschland-bd-3-schrot-korn-pumpernickel-vollkorn-und-schrotbrote/oclc/1185446284&referer=brief_results
https://www.worldcat.org/title/schrot-korn-pumpernickel-vollkorn-und-schrotbrote-grundwissen-vollkornmehl-und-vollkornschrot-vorteige-quell-und-bruhst...
Thanks, great idea, mariana, will do. Man, looking at the ToC, this is a serious tome. Looks incredible.
And everyone, thanks for your additional kind help as well. I swear I feel like I have fallen into a vortex where there are probably more knowledgeable and gifted bakers gathered here in one place than anywhere on the planet. I've given up trying to keep some semblance of order with my TFL and Chrome bookmarks. "Bookmark all tabs". Repeat.
Mariana,
Do you know if Bob's Red Mill cracked rye is still available? It is not listed on the website as a product for sale.
Thanks!
I am terribly sorry, I recommended it based on my past experience with it. I had no idea they discontinued it. Sorry.
Still, it serves as an illustration of different degrees of crushing grain even in the US, between different millers.
I get my cracked rye in Canada from Canadian sources, but I buy from Baker's Authority their flours as well, since they take only a couple of day to deliver them from their NY location to Toronto, Canada. Baker's Authority flours are super fresh, I love that.
As you'll see from my post, it's being out of print just might save me from hellfire, mariana.
No, truly, thank you, and please keep them coming.
Mariana, the small Baker's Authority-branded bag for rye chops is described as "similar to Ardent Mills Rye Chops"...
-do you happen to know the provenance? Is this repurpose-packaged Ardent Mills? Repackaged Conagra?
In a similar vein, the BA-branded pumpernickel - do you know if this is Ardent Mills?
Paul
Paul, if you click on the tab SPEC SHEET, you will see that rye chops are from Conagra Mills and pumpernickel - from Ardent Mills.
HOWEVER, if you click on the rye chops large bags,
https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/ardent-mills-rye-chops-50-lb-bag
it says Ardent mills for the same rye chops on the big bag and under spec sheet - again - Conagra mills. WTF??? ha-ha-ha. They explain this mystery under the tab "about Ardent Mills":
Ardent Mills is a new company, born from two industry pioneers: ConAgra Mills and Horizon Milling.
So, it is always Conagra, which is part of the big umbrella company - Ardent Mills.
On the bag of pumpernickel they say Ardent Mills and in the spec sheet it is also Ardent, without further clarification whether it was one of the horizon or conagra locations specifically who milled it.
I blew right past the spec sheets entirely - thanks, mariana. Hey, at least I used a swell name like "provenance," lol.
Grabbed some of both. Appreciate the referral!
I have the same question as Gadjowheaty. Is there any difference between cracked rye and rye chops?
Looking at the image on Central Milling's site, I really can't discern a difference between CM's steel-cut rye and Janie's Mill rye chops, despite the different milling methods (steel-cut vs stone-ground). I will say that the coarse and medium rye meals I have from New York Bakers do have a different texture and consistency than the JM rye chops. The coarse meal is almost whole berries and the medium rye meal is similar to Bob's Red Mill Scottish oatmeal (stone-ground not steel-cut) with a lot of floury fines. JM rye chops are more similar to BRM steel-cut oats with minimal fines.
I heard back from BRM. Extremely kind - you'll note Janie's Mill is among those she referred me to. Unfortunately, cracked rye is DOA.