Hydration and consistent dough
Hi,
I have started baking with sourdough a few months ago, and I'm still struggling with achieving a nice, roundish and most importantly tall loaf. My doughs tend to flatten out either after scoring or when moving from the banneton to my baking tray.
Then I am trying to do what is mostly advised: lower the hydration, build more tension, use the fridge, watch out over/under proofing, etc. The later one did help me, and I got a bread that was rising more than the average, but I really would like to proof at room temperature. So I am trying to reduce the hydration.
The thing is I only manage to lower hydration if I don't do autolyse. Anything below 70% hydration gets just too dry for an autolyse - well, mostly the outside part of the dough gets dry, and it's almost as if the dough is asking for water. However, if I add a tiny bit of water to make sure the dough is humid enough, adding the starter makes the dough too wet, not consistent enough to make a nice round ball that will stay standing for some minutes. I end up having to bake on a higher hydration than I wanted. I notice that if I skip autolyse I can go as low as 65% and I get a nicer and more consistent dough.
Is there something I am missing here? Is there a way the dough before autolyse should feel like so that I know it has just enough water? Or it doesn't make a difference and I should only look for my total hydration?
I make Hamelman's Vermont sourdough is 65% hydration. I make it every week, sometimes with 10% freshly milled rye and sometimes with freshly milled wheat. My starter is maintained at 125% hydration, and therefore I make the final levain at the same 125% hydration. Hamelman recommends to include the levain as part of the autolyse mix as it contains a fair amount of water. The dough at that point is 65% hydration and rarely needs to be adjusted. I then mix in the salt and do stretch and folds. This formula is very consistent and produces a beautiful loaf with good volume and crumb.
IMG_20200712_163354.JPG
Francis, please post your formula and let us you your method with fermentation timings. Room temps are also important.
Maybe this information will help us.
Also, what flour(s) are you using?
Images are also beneficial.
Thanks a lot you guys for the replies! I'll post an image later today.
The formula I'm using is this one:
Levain: 50g 90% hydrated starter, 50g Pivetti Tipo 1 flour, 50g water
Dough:
50g whole emmer
90g whole wheat Flour (Pivetti Integrale)
260g Halländskt lantvete (14g protein flour from Sweden I found at the store)
50g rye
310g water
9g sea salt
The flavour is amazing!
Updated to include the rye
Here’s what I got:
Francis, this is helpful. Please tell us how you work the dough with timings and temperature.
I calculate 80% hydration, 31% whole grain flour, and 11% pre-fermented flour In your levain.
Even though the dough was slack, you managed a nice ear...
A closeup of your crumb will help.
Danny
Hi Danny! How come you calculated 80%? On my calculation it was around 70%. I mean, the total flour is 525g (75g from the preferment, 450g from the rest of the dough).
Usually I let it bulk Ferment for around 5h, but I was curious to try shorter times like Gavin suggested here in this thread. So I let it bulk for 3h, did lots of stretch-and-folds, and proofed for 1h, as the dough was already saying it was ready almost right after I put it on the banneton. I feel I should have baked it sooner, but come on, it was just too soon, and the crumb kinda looks more like under proofed than anything.
The temps on my bench are around 29ºC.
(before rye)
total water: 24+ 50+ 310 = 384.
total flour : 26 + 50 + 50 + 90 + 260 = 476.
384/476 = 80.7%
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updated to include rye:
total flour : 26 + 50 + 50 + 90 + 260 + 50 = 524.
384/524 = 73.3%
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Note in most bread books the authors refer to "final dough" as everything not counting the pre-ferments (levain). And use "total dough" as the grand-total including all ingredients. ("Add-ins" are a complicating factor, and may bring in water or absorb water.)
(the following ratios have been updated to include the 50 g rye:)
Your "final dough" hydration is 310/450 = 68.9%
but "total dough" hydration is 384/524= 73.3%
It took me a while to pick up on the difference between "final" and "total". Grammatically speaking it should be the same. But in baker-speak they have specific and different meanings.
If you study the ingredient charts and baker's percentages in a few bread cookbooks, you eventually pick up on what they mean.
Hope this helps.
I think I’ve misunderstood this the whole time. I always thought that when calculating the hydration one would also count the flour of the pre-ferment. That’s why I get slack dough most of the time, as I am not that prepared to work on such wet doughs.
You are supposed to count the flour of the preferment... and its water too.
But a well-written formula indicates whether any given number refers to the preferment, final dough, or total dough. Some formulas written by home bakers are vague as to what they are referring to, so it's a common misunderstanding.
What bread cookbooks do you have?
It looks like you included the water of the levain, but not the flour. And you also included the flour of the starter. Is this how it’s supposed to be?
"total dough" includes _everything_.
"final dough" does not include starter nor levain.
I used the exact numbers from your above comment.
Sorry. It was my mistake. I just see that I forgot to write 50g of rye on my formula above, that’s why I was thinking it was odd... ???♂️
so my total flour is 525g.
Further to my earlier comment, I have summarised Hamelman's comments to get consistently good results for levain bread formulas in his book.
DanAyo has asked for your formula and process that is very pertinent to helping you. Perhaps you could reference your reply while considering the below.
Getting sourdough consistent resultsHow to get repeated success with Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough.
· Always have an active starter to build the final levain.
· Use baker's percentage and scale all ingredients.
· Take the time to measure the temperature of the room, flour and levain and work out the desired water temperature so you can achieve a final dough temperature after mixing of 24 to 25C.
· Use a proofing box set at 24 to 25C to maintain dough temperature. This will give you the predictability of your schedule.
· Mix to incorporate ingredients leaving out the salt. Autolyse 30-60 minutes.
· Mix to moderate gluten development.
· Perform stretch and folds during bulk fermentation. (I do two at 50-minute intervals and shape after a further 50 minutes). This will develop and strengthen the gluten framework.
· Final ferment (proof) for 2 to 2 1/2 hours; (or retard in the fridge until the next day works great for additional flavour, but not essential).
· Presteam the oven and bake in a hot oven 238C for 40 to 45 minutes. Maintain steam for about 10 minutes after loading the loaves. Lower to 215C after fifteen minutes and finish in a drying oven.
· Allow cooling before cutting.
Your process is a bit similar to mine, but I am curious - is your bulk fermentation around 2h40m (50+50+50)?
Yes. 2h30m.
Your process is a bit similar to mine, but I am curious - is your bulk fermentation around 2h40m (50+50+50)?
I usually do it like this:
My bench temperature is around 28º.
Autolyse: 20-30m
Bulk fermentation: 5h, where I do around 4-6 stretch-and-folds during the first 2h.
Pre-shape and rest for 20-30m
Shape and proofing for around 1h.
Baking for 20m at 250ºC with steam and 25-30m @ 230ºC.
The Vermont SD is not going to feel dry. The levain goes into the autolyse phase. It is a great dough and bread to get your bearings while stepping into the world of sourdough breads. A simple and easy formula that is relatively foolproof. And due to its low but quite workable hydration, you will not run into the pitfalls that so many nascent bakers do when they can't get a feel for high(er) hydration doughs and look at failed attempts.
Trust us when we say that this is the dough you want to use as a foundational formula bread.
Also, the more photos and details you provide, the more the good folks on TFL can try to help.
Here is a second Jeffrey Hamelman dough that might be suitable.
I missed the rye.
For simplicity I calculated the starter at 100% hydration. The levain is 75g flour and 75g water
Flours - 75 from levain, 50 emmer, 90 whole wheat, 260 white flour, and 50 rye. Total flour = 525g
Water - 75 from levain + 310 = 385 total water
385/545=0.73333 0.73333x100=73.3%
Percentage of Pre-Fermented Flour (PPF)
75/525=0.142857 0.142857x100=14.3% PPF
Percentage of Whole Grain
50+90+50=190 190/525=0.3619 0.3619X100=36.2%
Your estimated room temp is 29C (84F)
That's pretty warm...
Here are a few thoughts for your consideration.
It's impossible for me to know the characteristics of your flour. So I am unable to comment on that.
I was avoiding using the fridge, but I guess my kitchen is just too warm. I feel that after bulk fermentation the dough is almost ready (according to the poke test after shaping). I'll focus now on using the fridge and reducing my bulk fermentation time. I think I was fermenting for too long so the dough ended up less strong when shaping.
One thing I am very confused is when I should pre-shape, or, better, when I should consider the bulk fermentation done. I read on the forums here and elsewhere on the net that some people wait for some increase in the dough, some wait for air bubbles, some measure time, etc.
What should I expect before proofing? The other day I did it very short as I thought my dough was fermenting too fast because of the temperature+starter quantity. Now I have reduce the quantity of starter, started to bake on mornings to reduce the temps (now it's around 25).
But when should I pre-shape?
Francis, when to terminate the bulk ferment is a difficult thing to answer for your particular dough, since I have no experience with it. You may want to consider baking a well documented and more simplified bread from our forum, one that uses only white flour. Once you succeed with the basic bread, you could increase the complexity until you reach your ultimate goal.
One bread that has seen many successful bakes is Kristen’s Basic Open Crumb Sourdough. Her documentation and YouTube video is outstanding. If you decide to give it a try, post your results to that thread. I and many others monitor it and will join in and help if you need it.
I will try to bake that one then, and see where I go from there. Thanks for the help so far!
I am excited for you, Francis!
Looking forward to seeing your results. Don’t hesitate to ask for help, many are monitoring that Community Bake.
I’d second the suggestion to bake Kristen’s formula. It was that bake during the CB last year where my sourdough baking really improved and I started to get really good results.
If "Halländskt lantvete" means "whole grain"
then your dough was almost all whole grain, and was terribly over fermented.
Next time, try 1/3 as much levain if you do a ferment/proof for the same time and temp.
Or 1/2 as much levain if you shorten the bulk ferment and do the final proof in the fridge.
A nearly-all whole grain dough needs only 5% to 10% Pre-fermented flour depending on the time and temp of the ferment/proof periods.
The warmer, or longer, the ferment/proof, the less levain you should use.
Whole grain ferments faster than white flour. The higher the % of whole grain, you have to do some combination of up to three things:
a) less levain, b) cooler ferment/proof, c) shorter ferment/proof time.
Good luck, amigo.
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Add on: I just noticed: "Pivetti Tipo 1 flour" in your levain. Italian type 1 is a high bran flour, "almost" whole wheat. Which makes for a very powerful starter. This is another reason you should use only about 1/3 the amount of levain. Instead of 150 grams, try 50 grams.
No, Halländ is the place in Sweden where this wheat comes from. It appeared during the 1800-1900's as a wheat more adapted to that environment. It's supposed to be very good for long fermenting bread and has 14% protein.
But it was very good that you said that. I should definitely use a bit less levain since my kitchen these days is very hot. That's probably why I'm getting very slack dough. But my problem is that when I do a short fermentation, I'm getting slack dough and tunnelling on my bread. So I guess that a good compromise might be a bit longer fermentation and less levain. 150g for a total 800ish g might be too much.
You still need to know if this is white/refined flour, or has "some" bran or has "all" the bran.
Is there an "ash%" rating on the package?
Does it give a French or Italian rating like T55 or T80 or T110, or Tipo 1 ? That will give a clue about the bran.
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Ah-Ha, found this: Is it siktat/sålla or fullkorn ?
In Scandinavia they don't seem to have a good rating system for flour. Flour tends to be quite weak, so when one finds this kind of flour that you can't find on supermarkets one just buys it. No ash information - actually never saw that in any flour in Europe, at least on those one finds on supermarkets.
That's why I generally stick to Italian flour that I can find here, the Type 1. I often get better results with it. But combination of this Swedish flour with Emmer was out-of-this-world good.
about Swedish flours now!
Ok, it is not 100% whole grain. So "probably", as a guess, you can use 1/2 to 2/3 as much levain, 75 g to 100 g, again, depending on the time and temp of the ferment/proof.
Thank you so much! Will do that!
Since we are on this topic, could you tell me one thing about dough consistency? Is the goal to pre-shape it before it has become very puffy and double in size? I realise that when I shaped my dough after following this thread, with a much shorter fermentation, my dough was so much easier to shape and was standing higher - although not high enough - than before. I see most recipes suggest many hours of bulk fermentation, but maybe my temperature/amount levain is making my down grow too much, too fast? In 5 hours it's more than double its size.
others go into that. Dan, Gavin and Alfanso can explain that part better than I.
I wish someone had told me that I can’t bake good bread without one. It would have spared me of so much frustration. I got one now, and it is just way better than anything I baked before.
sure, maybe it was me, maybe there are ways to make bread as good without using a Dutch oven, but I’m sold.