December 25, 2018 - 5:46am
Xmas Panettone (Massari)
| Massari Dissapore | ||||
| Flour | 80.0% | 400 | 168 | 240 |
| Natural Yeast | 20.0% | 100 | 42 | 60 |
| Water | 28.0% | 140 | 58.8 | 84 |
| Sugar | 24.0% | 120 | 50.4 | 72 |
| Egg Yolks | 24.0% | 120 | 50.4 | 72 |
| Butter | 20.0% | 100 | 42 | 60 |
| Flour | 20.0% | 100 | 42 | 60 |
| Sugar | 20.0% | 100 | 42 | 60 |
| Honey | 5.0% | 25 | 10.5 | 15 |
| Salt | 1.6% | 8 | 3.36 | 4.8 |
| Egg Yolks | 26.0% | 130 | 54.6 | 78 |
| Butter | 30.0% | 150 | 63 | 90 |
| Water | 14.0% | 70 | 29.4 | 42 |
| Vanilla | 0.5% | 2.5 | 1.05 | 1.5 |
| Orange Zest | 0.5% | 2.5 | 1.05 | 1.5 |
| Lemon Zest | 0.5% | 2.5 | 1.05 | 1.5 |
| Sultanas | 40.0% | 200 | 84 | 120 |
| Candied Orange | 30.0% | 150 | 63 | 90 |
| Candied Citron | 10.0% | 50 | 21 | 30 |
| 394.1% | 1970.5 | 827.61 | 1182.3 |
Woke up Christmas day to find a very active primo impasto.
Illustrated recipe: https://www.dissapore.com/ricette/panettone-iginio-massari/
Merry Christmas everyone
-Michael
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Comments
Can't wait to see how it turns out, Michael.
Merry Christmas!
dw
Thanks Debra.
Great to hear from you, it's been a few years. Happy holidays.
I cut a cross and brushed with melted butter.
Ideally I would have let it prove a little more, but man's gotta sleep!
The bundled preferment looks good and tight too, but hard to judge from here. Will you tap it or try to squeeze it or drum on it for sound to know when it's ready? Can we tease out your plans for it?
Cheers Mini.
Tight indeed, like a rock it is!
It was unwrapped, bathed, fed and put back to bed.
How does one knead a firm (45%) hydration dough. Treat it like pasta of course...
Season's greetings!
This looks so good! It looks good enough to eat how it is. Can't wait to see the final product!
P.S. thanks for the reading on my post. It was very interesting.
Janes
I have posted a few pictures of the finished product (see above). No crumb as yet, I like to wait 3-4 days before making the cut!
Glad to be of service Sir.
Happy holidays
I'm so jealous of your panettoni. ;) Many thanks for sharing your recipes and experiences with us!
Have you ever experienced the problem that the panettone had a good oven spring on its corner but not so good in the center? I managed to get some good panettoni over the last years but they never showed those big balloon-like shapes, though the 1st and 2nd doughs rise well and the gluten is stable like rubber (Massari recipe). :( Since I use the same glace like you described it once: could it be that the glace hardens too fast in the heat and inhibits the oven spring?
Unfortunately most recipes also don't say anything about the oven program - according to the temp of usually about 175 °C I guess it's top/bottom heat, not convection/fan-assisted heat, right?
Thanks again and regards
Didi
Hi Didi.
Can't say I've ever encountered the issue you describe. If your dough handles and rises as it should then yes I would look at the baking apparatus. Indeed conventional cooking/baking is the optimal (no fan). 170-175C seems to be the consensus.
Thank you for your kind words.
Cheers,
Michael
This is very difficult bread to make is really your forte. I wish I could make one like this in the future too. So tall and looks really light!
I was pleased with how the mixing of the second dough went, no issues to speak of.... In the past it certainly was problematic. This formula is difficult with domestic planetary mixers!
The crumb (Camera and phone shots).
The best yet! Super tasty and shreddy...
Enjoy!
Michael
if you turn your new oven on end with the control panel under the oven. I haven't tried it yet, I have to warn. :)
Aren't they just beautiful?
labor of love. Very nice all the way around. Lots of work but well worth it at the end when it turns out this well. This has to taste terrific! Now it is only another year till it's panettone time again:-)
Happy New Year Michael
A technical feat where patience is an ingredient! Thank you for your kind words Dab.
Another year until panettone season yes, but there is panettone in another guise in Easter and the Colomba of Massari is on my to do list...
Happy new year to you and to yours.
See you on the other side...
PS. My best for Lucy, sorry to hear of her ill health. May she recover as best she can.
All the best,
Michael
I am one of those users who enjoy reading and looking at all those magic Panettones , Michael you have Awesome Panettone I could not resist to not write my first comment ???...
Can I ask what is Malt? I see people using this in second dough of panettone like 2g , maybe its stupid question bit if you can post a foto of that Malt would be nice.. Cheers
Welcome to The Fresh Loaf.
Malt is derived from sprouted grains, typically barley. It often helps with fermentation by proving maltose sugar, either directly or by releasing it from the flour. It also steers acid production toward lactic acid.
Thx Michael,
is it ok if I ask did you ever try to use this product from Caputo called Criscito = Dried Lievito Madre? Just got 1kg and to be honest no clear informations how to activate that also not clear why should be used with regular yeast hmmm whats the point of this cause if I understand good activation also takes like 4-5 days ... For the moment I stick with mine but one day I will give it try to this one because they advertise as no more hassle refreshing every day blabla
This product is not intended for re-activation. It is an improver, a supplement to bring a commmercial leavened dough in line with a sourdough. It is pre-fermented and dried to be used as a substitute of part of the flour in any given recipe.
Make sence now? Hence why it says what it says i.e.: "no more hassle refreshing"
yes yes more clear thx ?... and I have another question over rising panettone dough ... fiirst dough rising should be 10-12h till tripple ...but mine is after 8 hours tripple at 26C hmm sould I wait 2h more or tripple is good sign that dough is ready? I must say after 10h it is huge and goes a bit to sour side hmm ...thx
Sounds like your starter is not balanced, especially if it is creating sourness. Once a tripling of volume has occurred you can proceed to the next dough.
Thx Michael,
Not sure what you mean about balance of starter my lievito is 50% hydration refreshed every 48 hours 1:1:0,5 looks good rising and lots of activity going on , I am refreshing 3x in 12hrs before making panettone but maybe I should try next time to refresh couple of days before starting with panettone I dont know still looking for perfect result ;)...
Can I ask whats best way to store lievito with 50% hydration ? Now problem is I am going next week 7 days out of country but not sure if enough is to refresh on day I am leaving and just put in fridge :(.. I have read about it a bit but most goes over liquid lievito so just to be sure if I can put in fridge stiff one refreshed i jar like I do always?
Thx in advance
A
Hi Michael -
Do you ever take pH readings right after mixing primo impasto and then again after fermentation (tripling) of the primo impasto? My understanding is that my primo impasto shouldn't be below 5 pH after fermentation....but for me it consistently is. I was curious as to whether or not you have thoughts on this.
Thank you --
Alex
Hi Alex.
I have done. But I am moving away from using pH meters and relying more organoleptics.
That is correct the primo impasto should have a pH above 5 after the rising.
pH meters need calibrating, so be sure that it is working accurately.
If the pH is below 5 then your lievito is not mature and is likely to be too strong. More refreshments will probably help with that.
In terms of organoleptics, the risen dough should be pleasant and not sour in any way. A carbonic acid zing, sweetness and no lingering acid on the tongue.
What pH readings are you getting?
Michael
PS: see Massari taking pH measurements of his lievito and impasto: https://www.gamberorosso.it/notizie/il-nuovo-laboratorio-hi-tech-di-iginio-massari-a-brescia-uno-spazio-all-avanguardia-per-panettoni-e-lievitati/
Hi Michael -
Thanks so much for your response. I would have responded sooner but the response alert from fresh loaf went to one of my spam folders. I've been moving away from my pH meter also but still need to trouble shoot this primo pH issue before abandoning it further. My pH readings of Primo after tripling remain consistently below 5.0. They've been as low as 4.3 but most of the time even at this low of a pH I still get successful doughs and pretty nice final product. I know that if I can fix this issue it will be better so it's been eating at me. My pH meter gets calibrated regularly so I think it's functioning properly.
My lievito should be mature and seems quite healthy. I follow Montanari's suggestions for refreshments. I keep it tied at night for usually 16-18 hrs at a time at ambient temperature. My house doesn't get warmer than 72 F at night currently (usually it's cooler with the a/c on). It gets a bath once or twice a week. I've been refreshing it and feeding regularly for many weeks since I'm constantly experimenting. I usually use it in the primo impasto when it's between 4.1 - 4.3 depending on the day. I've experimented with using different flours for refreshments as part of troubleshooting....I realized that some of the domestic high protein flours are malted and seem to promote increased activity. I thought that maybe this was contributing to the issue but when switching to an unmalted flour I get the same results.
pH right after mixing primo is usually around 5.4. I realize here that other folks I know get close to 5.8...if my initial reading were higher then it seems like maybe I would be in good shape. I've taken the pH of all of my ingredients to see if anything there was out of whack (I've even experimented with using more alkaline waters) but all of my ingredients fall into what I think is a normal pH range. These results seem pretty consistent for me despite the formula being used.....Massari, Giorilli, Marinato etc.
Most recently I've gone to manipulating sugar quantities in my primo. Increased sugar amount has been leading to a higher pH post fermentation. In this way I've gotten the pH to almost 5, but knowing that most others seem to get there more organically without manipulation of formulas makes me think that there's something I'm missing.
I'll give more thought to tasting the Primo after tripling. Thanks for the link to the Massari article!
I'll try to attach photos of my most recent batch for reference. This is Giorilli's formula (slightly modified...5% less butter and a bit less water). Good oven spring and pretty good crumb structure. I really just want to figure out why my readings are so different from everyone else's. Thanks for your thoughts!
I’d just like to know if you or Michael or anyone else have figured out the answer to this because I have the exact same problem, would love to figure something out.
thanks,
Danilo
Hi Danilo - for me it ended up being that I was keeping my starter too warm at night. For me the temperature needs to be controlled, and intentional at ALL stages .
Thanks for the quick response, I’m glad you got it sorted.
I built a temperature controlled proofer, and I have a probe thermometer that records over time so I have a log of my PM temperatures over time.
I keep my PM in water overnight at 16C and in air during the day at 26C, refreshed first at 1:2:0.4 and after 4 hours it has a pH of 4.1-4.4 I’ll refresh again at 1:1:0.4 for 3.4-4 hours until tripled and pH of 4.1-4.4. Then back to overnight rest.
On the day of making the panettone I follow the same procedure but 3 refreshments.
I still get an acidic primo impasto (pH 4.6). I only bought a pH meter because I thought something was wrong and was hard to tell with just my senses.
If you're interested in chatting about it more feel free to email directly: alovick@gmail.com . I don't check this forum much. I'm happy to share thoughts.
I've not yet figured out how to address the problem but in simple terms it can only be the result of a LM that is too strong. This is the tricky part of LM maintenance, to obtain strong leavening power but at the same time keeping the influence of bacteria in-check so that they don't acidify the dough too much.
I will figure this out!
Michael
Hi Michael,
It's me again. I'm planning to make panettone this weekend and just to be sure if my understanding is correct. What is the 400 gr, 168 gr, 240 gr flour? Is it 0.6 recipe, 0.42 recipe?
Thanks
Hi Elny,
Yes exactly! Those numbers represent different fractional variants of the original recipe.
Cheers,
Michael
Hello Michael,
It's normal for a panettone made with lievito naturale to present a acid taste?
Can anyone help me figure out how much dough in grams I should put into different size molds? I recently made the most beautiful panettone naturally leavened dough, the dough rose beautifully to the lip of the mold and then disaster, the dough overflowed the molds. I bought the following molds https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JPJ0OQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 putting 985.5 grams of dough into one of them just to discover that 1. the molds were actually a smaller dimension, 15 cm W diameter and 10 cm. H. 2. there is absolutely no way those molds could withstand almost a kilo of dough. I wanted to have a beautiful tall dome on my panettone so I definitely didn't want them to be too short. I used a formula to figure out the Volume of the molds but somehow I keep getting the math wrong.
Those molds 15cm x 11cm for 750g Panettone but you should put inside 825g of dough , normally it should be inevery size of mold you use 10% more dough for example...
for 500g but you use 550g of dough for molds 750g you put inside 825g of dough and for molds from 1000g you should put inside 1100g of Dough...
So here are diameters in cm:
500g = 13cm x 9.5cm = 550g dough
750= 15x11cm= 825g dough
1000g=16x11cm= 1100g if dough
Hope that helps well you can experiment maybe a bit less dough 530g for 500g molds for example but you shouluse a bot more dough always.
Cheers