Almost Panettone Giorilli 2021
So, it has been several years since I was baking ‘Grandi lievitati’ regularly. Getting back into the swing of things, and to some degree relearning what I once had figured out, or was at the very least working with more successfully…
Mastering Lievito Madre is no joke and is perhaps the most difficult accomplishment for any sourdough baker that wishes to really understand and control the many intricate nuances of fermentation and manipulate the biological and chemical processes which can ultimately make or break one’s endeavours.
While re-treading this old ground I have been faced with seemingly unruly souring and not even a high dose of sugar could stand in its way.
Many leavened primo impastos were abandoned, the last one was so sour it plagued the kitchen with a mildly sweet but also pungently acetic aroma. Evilness!
In the last few days, I am sure I have made progress in my understanding… In fact, through mulling over and mentally digesting recent occurrences I have come up with a rule based solution that really has shown promise in establishing what I’m looking for in a perfectly mature LM.
During the process of attaining that outcome I did manage to successfully bake a panettone. Despite suffering from a persistently overt acidity problem which then in turn leads to other problems such as dough handling and leavening issues.
The remaining ingredients (butter, aromatic mix (honey, orange zest and vanilla), egg yolks and fruit) to be added to the mix so far which consisted of the leavened primo, flour and sugar.
Last step adding the fruit..
Rheology issues. Dough was too keen to to tear while shaping indicating an excess of acetic acid which makes gluten tight / tenacious.
This panettone was on the right track but made before I had fully fixed the fermentation issue. Consequently it needed more time to proof, time that I didn't have, so I baked it early while only half way up the mould.
Formula:
| Giorilli | ||
| Flour | 4000 | 220 |
| Natural Yeast | 1150 | 63.25 |
| Water | 2000 | 110 |
| Sugar | 1250 | 68.75 |
| Egg Yolks | 900 | 49.5 |
| Butter | 1200 | 66 |
| Salt | ||
| Flour | 1000 | 55 |
| Malt | 30 | 1.65 |
| Sugar | 1100 | 60.5 |
| Honey | 250 | 13.75 |
| Salt | 70 | 3.85 |
| Egg Yolks | 1600 | 88 |
| Butter | 2150 | 118.25 |
| Sultanas | 2300 | 126.5 |
| Candied Orange | 1000 | 55 |
| 500 | 27.5 | |
| Totals | 20500 | 1127.5 |
Comments
One of these days I’ll need to spend the time to learn how to make a panettone. I’ve come to appreciate them more knowing the care and effort needed to make one. I always enjoy reading your posts Michael.
Merry Christmas
Benny
If you decide to take the plunge, then I am here to help.. I might organize a webinar if people are interested, since I know an awful lot about the technicalities of SD fermentation, LM and panettone...
Merry Christmas
Michael
That would be great at some point. The pandemic has me too busy with work and now back to volunteering to give vaccinations at the city and hospital clinics so not a ton of free time to learn something new that is very involved. However, I will take you up on your offer when I am able to.
Merry Christmas
Benny
that is still a pretty panettone. If you get really annoyed by a recalcitrant bake, feel free to ship it to me. ;-)
Best wishes for the next batch.
Paul
Hahaha, I'll give that some consideration but the shipping will be pretty pricey!
Thanks Paul, I will get it right next time...
Merry Christmas
Michael
Looks like a very difficult dough to work with. I've got full confidence in you that it's turned out very well. I'd certainly like a tutorial but taking a step back to basics concentrating on LM first. I'm still not sure why simply keeping a 50% hydration starter differs. I know LM has traditional techniques for keeping the sour at bay but surely keeping a 50% hydration starter and feeding regularly would produce similar results?
Merry Christmas.
The crumb will be okay and I'll upload a shot when I cut it, but bear in mind this panettone is about 2/3 the size it should be.
Regarding the nature of LM, I could give you a very long winded answer but how far down the rabbit hole do you wish to go? To answer your question simply, the answer is no, and with such an approach I can almost guarantee failure. There is far much more to it than simply keeping the sour at bay.
Merry Christmas
Michael
We have not a rabbit hole but room for a small mouse or perhaps a shrew...
It does at least taste very delicious! No sourness in taste, but this was plagued by too low a pH during processing, a whole logarithm of too much acidity but the end result must be close in terms of TTA because, like I said there is no sourness or overt acidity.
But the problem with too low a pH is visually obvious and makes for a very crumbly crumb despite the extensive gluten development. That is because pH changes the nature of gluten - it partially dissolves it!
PS. In a nutshell the excess acidity makes the end result more cakey, less bready...
Cakey crumb sounds perfectly ok to me. No sourness is the goal. Small shrew hole is barely even that. Okay so in 'panettone terms' there are some minor things about it that fall short but it looks very appealing and sounds tasty. I like tasty cake with some fruit in it so what's there not to like? That's a pass in my book.
Hope you're having a very Merry Christmas Michael.
Abe, I am always highly critical of my own work and I often offset that with some self-deprecating humour thrown in, I'm not looking for sympathetic encouragement here, sorry but your well meant words are lost on me.
Commentary aside, can you now appreciate there is indeed more to making a panettone than just simply keeping the sour out?
I've made better panettoni in the past, this and other posts are all part of an information pool that I wish to share with those invested in the art of sourdough fermentation and panettone making. Hope you understand.
Happy Holidays
Michael
HI Michael, I've been keeping up with your posts here on the The Fresh Loaf for a long time. You've shared valuable information and experience which has helped me quite a bit in learning how maintain an LM & bake panettone. It is very much appreciated.
I am dealing with a similar issue as you described here and I am at the extent of my personal knowledge and experience in trying to solve it. I would love to hear about your "rule based solution" in establishing a mature LM and if you are willing, for you to share any thoughts or advice in the consistent problem I have been having with my bakes. I'll explain below.
Essentially my primo is way to acidic after the overnight fermentation. After 10 hours, I've been consistently getting PH readings (I use the Hanna Dough PH meter) between 4.1 & 4.3. In Thomas Chambelland's Sourdough Panettone and Viennoiserie says that the PH of the first dough after fermentation should be around 5. It is also possile that it is tripling too fast. It usually has tripled to quadrupled by hour 10 though It could be happening much earlier (while I am asleep?)
I've abandoned quite a few 2nd dough mixes after these readings but on the occasions I have tried the mix anyways, the results of this acidity are clear - my dough struggles to come together or form a windowpane somewhere between the final egg yolk addition and butter addition. It becomes cake batter. If it does have some structure, and I'll do my best shape it, it might rise to the top of the mold but it will not grow any further in the oven. I've had quite a few fall out of their molds while hanging upside down.
In summer of 2021, I was finally starting to have success with my bakes (though I knew I could improve) but then I moved across the country and I believe extended time in the fridge with not enough daily maintenance brought my LM out of balance and now I am getting the results described above. Over the past couple months, I have varied my daily maintenance to try and bring it back into balance. My routine and some adjustments I have tried follow:
Maintenance - (I am using Panettone Flour by Molino Pasini)
Feed LM 1:1:0.45 - Store @ 16-18 C for 12-16 hours - PH usually ranges between 3.8-4.3 after this period.
Bagnetto - 15 minutes 3-4g sugar per liter of cold water
Feed 1:1:0.45 - roll up, cross cut, into proofer @ 26-28 C for 3.4-4 hours
Feed 1:1:0.45 - store @ 16-18 C for 12-18 hours
Occasionally, I will just do the long refreshment and not the short 4 hour one if I don't have time.
I spent a week or so feeding it 1:2:1 to try and shift the balance. I was using the cloth bound method but switched to the water method for long refreshes with hopes of it having an impact.
When I decide to bake, I'll do the traditional 3x refreshments beforehand (I have also done the 3x refreshment up to 3 days in a row before baking). PH typically reads between 4.2 & 4.3 at the end of each refresh, I can never quite get down to the "perfect" 4.1. Then I mix the first dough, PH reads 5.45 or so after the mix and then I face the problem described above after the primo overnight rise.
Thanks for reading and your time. If any more information is helpful, I am happy to provide. Thanks for your time and thoughts!
Hi there.
Thanks for reaching out and providing those details. While they are useful, I am very visual orientated. So, if you can send me any pictures you may have of your LM or Primo, there is greater chance I might identify what could be wrong.
It might be that you just need to commit to more than three consecutive warm refreshes.
Signs of a mature LM:
Most important: When cut into the aroma within the cross section should be distinctly and pleasantly perfumed with an alcoholic scent, almost fruity and absolutely no sour notes.
Secondly: The texture should billowy soft, sort of mallow like without the bounce.
Thirdly: Taste, lightly acidic / tart in pleasant way and there should be no raw flour taste / no dryness.
Are you detecting any of those features?
Cheers,
Michael
Thanks for this, I have been traveling for work the past few weeks, I will reply with photos a little later this week.
Appreciate it.
Circling back around to this post form long ago, just wanted to say I appreciate you be wiling to help and apologies I never uploaded photos - I took a long break from working with an LM. I recently converted a liquid starter into a new LM and after about 10 days of training got a nice bake complete. I am still dealing with an overly acidic primo for some reason but overall, this came together. Some photos including my primo in the mixing bowl (unfortunately I didn't photograph it while it was still proofing).
I am not sure how to get my primo to stay above 5. I am ending up around 4.4-4.6. I will keep training my LM and see how it goes.
Here are some photos from my recent bake - a 1kilo classico (I scaled the recipe slightly too small and ended up with a 950g loaf for a 1kg mold but I still got decent volume, though I'd like more).
In the Mold
Crumb
Primo in the mixing bowl
2nd Dough
In the mold after final proof with glaze
I could have written your post, exactly these things have been happening with my bakes. I have been working on the LM for several months, all the same sources, have baked Giorilli, Schvartzapel, Bosco, Massari, etc., always with some variation of the same results: Cornbread.
Using the Hanna Bread pH meter also, getting 4.1 at the end of refreshes, then 4.3 at the end of mixing Impastos. This is hard to figure, but clearly has to be the LM, in spite of the 4.1 indications during the refreshes.
My latest, a Colomba, had beautiful gluten developing throughout the first mix, until almost the end, then suddenly is wasn't *quite* as good.... when put on the counter it was somewhat sticky. Later, it took an extra two hours to triple, no big deal, but the second Impasto stopped working halfway through the yolk additions. The rest is history.
I have come to understand that many people have this experience..... I am using a KA mixer, with backup from an old Cuisinart 7 qt. Thinking about getting a Famag, but that's not going to help unless I can get the LM under control.
Excess acidity is the common cause of mixing issues. The problem with pH is that it is only part of the picture when quantifying acidity. TTA matters also.
pH
TTA
Lievito Madre
3.8-4.1
9-11
LM Refreshes
4-4.3
6.5-8
*Reproduced from document by Dott.ssa Federica Racinelli
Thank you so much! This explains so much. I have ordered an inexpensive titration kit, and will be measuring results on my LM. Since the time I wrote that post, I have purchased a Famag spiral mixer, and have made one successful batch of the Giorilli recipe. I think now that it was almost an accident. I had been working on my LM, and getting the acidity down. I could see the color and texture improving as well. pH was a little over 4.1 generally at the end of a cycle.
However when I made the 1st impasto, while it rose very nicely and within the desired timeframe, the pH was 4.83 I believe. I knew it should be over 5, but continued. I ended up with a very good panettone. But now, looking at a TTA/pH chart on Bakerpedia, I see what a large difference there is between those numbers. I think I was skating along the bottom edge of what would work. I have made a number of batches that had lower pH at that stage and none of them worked.
25C9863B-64FE-4419-BC43-729AB2E17CC6.jpeg
Nice work... I am currently in recovery, got the panettone/pandoro/colomba making needle out of my arm several years ago. I was a serious addict. You're tempting me here to fall off the wagon!
From one addict to another, I'm sure you can understand how there is much joy to be had in making these enriched holiday bakes.
Sometimes you have to fall off the wagon... It's good for the soul.
Merry Christmas!
Michael
Michael, if you had trouble with your lievito madre, what chance the rest of us?
I follow a few panettone makers on Instagram and I think their greatest Christmas emotion is a sense of relief when all the production has left the building.
Would a completely new build of LM have helped - or perhaps you tried that.....
Lance
this problem I am seeing is likely to be one that has been there all along but which has been evident to a greater or lesser degree, and in this case, a greater degree.
It is only now that I am measuring the pH of the primi and secondi impasti that I am more aware of it!
The resulting panettone ticks several boxes, it doesn't taste sour (VA) or overtly acidic (tart) and it does have a very nice flavour.
My LM leavens fine more or less, but the acidification in the primo impasto with regard to pH is far too prominent, giving values a whole logarithm or more too low. However the TTA can't be too far off based on taste alone.
If only I had more time to work on this...
Michael
Hello Michael,
Thank you for sharing the recipe. I made it last night and while I haven’t cut it yet, it smells heavenly. I appreciate your comment about the overly acetic PM causing cakey texture. I don’t measure the Ph but have been wondering about my 50% failure factor, always in 2nd dough losing the ability to bind all the butter. And it seems this time, doing a bagnetto right before the 3 refreshments might have helped. For the first dough, do you recommend 12 hour fermentation or just 3x rise (which usually occurs around 10th hour for me). And do you recommend chilling the primo impasto for a little bit prior to mixing to help keep the temperature cool?
Thanks, Michelle
Thanks Michelle.
I posted the basic formula but I didn't detail the included orange zest and vanilla seeds which are infused with the honey overnight. I'm glad you had success with this, well done!
The butter not incorporating / binding issue is something I used to suffer frequently in the early days of making panettone. Back then I had no idea why it was happening and what I could do to fix the situation and no answers could I find. But I know now, in loose terms what causes it...
It's difficult to explain, but in this case the LM is too strong in an overly oxidative way where not enough dough softening is occurring which can also be described as too much yeast and not enough LAB. This can be caused by the persistent use of a very stiff LM and it typically leads to the panettone falling from the mould while inverted. Chemically, this being the result of an over expression of dextrans during fermentation that interfere with the setting starch gel while cooling. It makes sense that the bagnetto may have remedied the situation.
When the primo impasto rises to a 3x (triple) volume this marks its completion. 10 - 12 hours is the typical guide and if you get there in 10 hours then it's ready for the next stage, no need to wait...
And I do indeed recommend chilling the primo impasto since heat is easily created in small scale productions. I also put my dough hook in the freezer for ten minutes.
Cheers,
Michael
Hello Michael,
I’m new here and at a quick glance you appear to be the Panettone Boss. Your bakes are very inspiring and your knowledge even more so.
I have recently ventured into the alchemy of Panettone baking with numerous failures under my belt. I understand that that there are many many variables but a quick self-diagnosis points to a problematic starter. During the 3 pre-mix refreshments my starter triples in 3 hours BUT when I mix the first dough it takes 30 hours to even double by which point the acid gloop is useless.
Please could you point me in the direction of hope or better yet a solution to fix what must be a miserable imbalance.
Thanks, Barry
Hello Barry,
I know the problem you describe all too well...
Consistent tripling is perhaps the most important factor and from what you say this is occurring. How accurately are you measuring that?
The answer is almost always to do with the acidity. Do you happen to measure pH? It's not massively essential, but this data can help provide more clues.
I typically try to avoid talk about LAB / Yeast cellular population ratios but it's clear the yeast population is not sufficient. Are you maintaining a consistent 1:1 feeding ratio?
A mature LM when cut into will give a distinct alcohol aroma and should not smell at all sour (acetic). Without this quality, it would not be worth proceeding to make panettone.
Out of interest what panettone formula are you following?
Can you tell me more about how you maintain your LM? And any pictures of the LM you have might help...
Cheers,
Michael
Hello Michael,
Thank you so much for your reply.
Yes, my starter triples easily within the three hour window and yes I maintain a 1:1:0.45 ratio. My 160g food-film and cloth-bound starter lives in the refrigerator and I typically refresh it once a week. This process involves removing the core followed by a 15 minute water bath (500ml with 1g of sugar). The starter floats immediately. I then refresh as per the ratio mentioned, then I work it on the counter to develop the gluten before wrapping it up again. I leave it to rest out on the kitchen counter for 4 hours (Approx. 23C (currently)) before popping it back in the fidge.
If I'm baking I refresh it 3 times (every 12 hours) preceding the three times 3 hourly refreshments. Attached is a picture (cross section) that I took today. I do have a PH meter but forgot to measure for your reference. I did however taste it and its very sour but does not have an alcoholic smell.
Hi Barry,
Thanks for the extra info, it really helps.
Let me start with the bad news. Your starter is a considerable way from being a LM type starter. Unfortunately the way you have been feeding / refreshing is not in accordance with the typical and required regime that will bring about a starter with the right properties. There are several misunderstandings.
With those points in mind I'll describe a typical process...
Day1. LM taken from overnight storage at circa 16°C. It is washed and fed and then allowed to enter the first refresh / leavening activation phase. On competition of that cycle approx. 4 hours, part of this leavened dough may be used to inoculate a bread dough mix. The remaining part will then be refreshed for a second time. After another 4 hours as before part of this risen mass can be used for example; a croissant dough mix or any lightly enriched dough formula. The remainder is then fed more flour and water, part of which can be leavened for another 4 hours to be the third refresh for panettone etc. and the other part is allowed to leaven overnight to become the new mother for the next day, this is important.
Day2 and subsequent days. All steps from Day1 are repeated.
As described there is no separate mother dough, the refreshes always become the new mother. LM maintenance is something born of a working bakery and undergoes continuous refreshments everyday. Without similar daily processing it would not be possible to attain a starter with the correct properties needed to make a panettone.
The good news... You know now where you have been going wrong and go from there...
Hope that helps,
Michael
PS. For clarity I use the word ‘starter’ as a catch-all term. What some call ‘levain’ I call starter.
Hello Michael,
Thank you so very much for your reply, all points noted for action.
I do not have the opportunity to bake frequently and I understand that there is a way in which I can fridge-store my LM. Im going to follow your steps for the next two weeks in order to re-balance the poor chap. After this what would you recomend as good MO for the infrequent baker?
Thanks again,
Barry