Baking in the Wolf Convection Steam Oven - CSO
This is a continuation of a thread which began on Houzz (http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3588343/baking-bread-in-a-cso?n=15), moved here to tap into all these fantastic bakers!
The thread has been about baking in the Wolf CSO and more specifically when steam is and isn't injected into the oven.
From Greastrap:
My problem is that my oven doesn't seem to inject any appreciable amount of steam when the oven is hot. I've tried this through every combination of preheating that I can think of, but nothing seems to work. I'm not basing this on any kind of scientific measurements though, but my own observations when I open the oven door. For example, if I set the oven to convection steam at 445, start it from cold, and let it run for 30 min., steam pours out when I open the oven door. So much so, that I need to stand back for several seconds to avoid burning myself. If I do the same thing but with the steam off (by pushing the MODE button), then turn the steam on after the oven is hot, I can hear the oven making noises, but no steam comes out when I open the door. I'd be interested to know if other people notice the same thing on their oven, which would indicate that there's a problem with mine. I plan to call Wolf support about this but, based on past calls I've had with them, I doubt they know themselves. The Wolf CSO book say that you should start all cooking from a cold oven. I tend to think that this isn't due to culinary considerations as much as limitations of the oven. For example, the instructions for the M series oven say to always broil with the door closed. A technician who came out to repair my oven said this was due to sensitive electronics located right above the door opening. He said their concern is that moist air might get in if broiling is done with the door open and cause problems with the electronics.
I was thinking of getting just a small 10.5" cast iron pizza pan that weighs just 5 lbs. I agree that trying to move a preheated stone or heavy pan would be dangerous. I used to be a volunteer firefighter and have a pair of firefighter gloves that should work well for this purpose. It's just an experiment to see if I can get a better result, given that I can't seem to get steam if I preheat a stone in the oven.
Thanks for the SFBI recommendation. I actually live a bit more than an hour away from the CIA and could take courses there, but am not ready to make that kind of commitment yet. All of the work involved in making traditional bread seems a bit too time consuming to me and I was originally just interested in buying frozen dough to bake in the CSO. Everyone in the GW cooking forum tried to dissuade me from that though, and a helpful person there pointed me to the 5 Minute Artisan bread book. That seems to work well for me, as there's very little work, and even less cleanup. I posted my question about baking in the CSO here, as I thought it was more of a specific appliance question, as opposed to a general bread baking question. I'd be happy to start a discussion on the web site you mentioned, if you think it would be helpful there as well, though.
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Okay, I finally got my answer. Look at page 91 of the V-Zug manual that Chanop has kindly provided a link to above. No steam is produced at temperatures over 100C (212F). So you can't preheat the Wolf CSO and expect to get steam after putting the dough in.
If that is true, then I don't understand how there can be a Convection Steam mode that does steam cooking at 400F. Their recipe for pretzels in "Mastering tips and recipes" calls for preheating in Convection Steam mode to 375F. What would be the point?
I think somebody needs to call Wolf and ask them or dispute the V-Zug manual. (The Wolf CSO is just rebranded by Wolf, it is manufactured by V-Zug in Switzerland).
Boatguy, I have a Viking CSO, and had similar results - once you get above 212, it does not seem to introduce additional steam in anywhere near the amount below that. I do understand that steam looks different at higher temps, but I don't think it is solely that. One option is to preheat to 200 with steam only, load, increase to steam at 212 for a few minutes, to get the steam level up, then set to combi mode for 440. I usually bake only with 100% whole wheat, home milled, so my results are not similar to others, but I find the underside of the loaf is pale when I bake it on the steel pan which came with the oven. I have looked into getting a thicker steel plate, and if I do, I may try that approach. I have tried it with a pizza stone, but think there are two problems, one the stone absorbs some of the moisture, and two the stone will absorb some of the heat and won't get up to 400 until after the loaf is done.
I was thinking of that approach, stone/steam at 200F, then crank up to 440F. The Wolf has a "humid" mode which is supposed to retain the moisture, but maybe the stone would absorb some, and certainly it will slow the heat up to 440F. It seems none of these ovens wants to emulate a deck oven!
I've no first-hand experience, but my understanding (from speaking to a friend who's a chef) is that this type of oven is really intended for cooking meats - large jonts, or e.g. bbq ribs in a steam/humid environment at temperatures just under boiling (100C/212F)
The idea there is that it keeps the meat moist during cooking and can be used to keep meat hot for extended periods. Finishing off for serving/display is done either in another oven, or at a higher temperature in the same oven without steam - so that the meat is browned.
My friends example was BBQ ribs - plates of them kept in the steam oven, then flashed off under a salamander (broiler) and covered in sauce from a pot... Instant "bbq" ribs in a resturant without a bbq...
Might have to go back to other methods to get some steam in when cooknig bread though - tray in the bottom, etc.
-Gordon
Gordon, actually, the combi has a number of great features, though I agree with you that bread is probably not its best. For example, cheesecake is very simple to make - instead of resting the cheesecake pan in a tray of water, you use a steam setting, and it cooks very evenly, and does not crack. Using steam and heat allows it to cook much quicker than just dry heat - turkey is done in no time at all. While the Wolf shows a loaf of bread on the cover of its recipe book, I don't think they are as useful for bread as some manufacturers think. My least part is that many manufacturers - including Viking - actually have a bread baking auto program. Of course, there is no description of how long you should preheat, which of course impacts when it will switch from steam to dry heat to brown the crust, and apparently, the people that conceived that mode for the Viking have determined that all bread, no matter the size or shape of the loaf, will take the exact same time . While I originally bought it thinking it would elevate my bread baking, it hasn't in the least, but it still a great appliance. There is a reheat mode which does a great job reheating food without drying it out, and that is a favorite of mine.
Barry
Just a quick question. Was the turkey moister than with a dry bake?
Thanks
dobie
Yes, the turkey was much moister. I assume it is because the inside comes up to temp so quickly, the outside does not dry out as much. In some ways it is like deep frying a turkey - though it is not that quick because the turkey is not surrounded by oil, it is surrounded by moist air. The ones I did actually look better than this one, but she cooks a 14 lb turkey in 1 1/2 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7RajVEetWg At 20 minutes a pound in a conventional oven, it would take between 4 and 5 hours.
The Wolf CSO literature talks up the bread baking, and I've gotten some decent results with the Auto Steam bake mode, but not yet replicating a deck oven. This was placed into an unheated oven and then baked for 37min at 440F. The oven injects steam as it's heating up, then switches from steam to "hot air" after about 7 minutes. The scoring here is poor, but the bread itself is tasty, especially sandwich sliced. The crust is not as thick as I'd like. More experimentation in the coming weeks.
Does anyone have any further info? I just got the Wolf steam oven, and I am having the same problems.
I'm experimenting with different settings, but basically, if I preheat the oven to transfer the heat quickly to the bread, then the steam doesn't work, and if I use the bread setting in the oven, then steam works at 210F, which doesn't give a good oven spring.
I would appreciate any recommendations.