Last Chance for Oven
Although I think I have made my decision to stop using the oven for my bread baking I am posting in case there is one more thing I have possibly missed.
Over the last 3 months or so with the help of the amazing Abe, I have had great successes with adaptations for my Panasonic bread machine. However, it is a different story when baking in the oven. I have not had one completely successful loaf. At best the loaves have baked but still turned out gummy in the middle. I have done all the usual things such as using a pizza stone, pre-heating for a long time, buying an oven thermometer to check the temperature (waste of time as it is so variable very quickly and it says it is 2 gas marks out which I find hard to believe as all my other food and dishes cook correctly).
I have tried to simulate a Dutch oven with a glass cloche over the pizza stone and that didn't make any difference. I have also just tried again using pans.
I am at the end of my tether as my gas bill has shot up and the amount of waste from thrown out loaves has been ridiculous. Other than buying an electric oven as that is the only other thing I can think it could be, has anyone else got any ideas that doesn't involve great expense and will result in a properly baked loaf? Or should I just stick to my very successful bread machine results?
I don't relate to "gas marks", but I do understand °C and °F. I do know that ovens can be off by 25°F or more from the oven setting. Other foods such as roasts and casseroles are not ss sensitive to the actual oven temperature.
I suggest that you trust the thermometer. Do NOT use time in the oven as your guide for doneness, but DO use the internal temperature of the bread as your guide. The interior temperature of the loaf should be 195° to 205° F (91° to 96°C) when the bread is done. Buy an "instant read" thermometer to determine the temperature. They are cheap, certainly cheaper than a new oven.
Good luck and have patience.
Ford
Since I can't be there to see how the thermometer's indicated temperatures fluctuate, I have to ask: are the ups and downs coincident with the oven's burners turning on and off? I would expect that the temperature would rise after the burner switches on and begin to fall after the burner switches off. That's how ovens typically work, since their thermostats try to keep the temperature within a set range instead of at a specific temperature.
Being in the U.S., I also don't know how gas marks compare to temperatures, Celsius or Fahrenheit. However, you now have two indicators that something is amiss: improperly baked bread and the thermometer readings. That other baked goods turn out well could just as easily be explained by the baker's adjustments (whether or not recognized as such) as by proper oven operation.
Were it my oven, I would have a technician check it. Thermostat settings are often incorrect even when brand new. They can also drift over time. Your oven may need something as simple as a recalibration or, possibly, a new thermostat. Those are much less costly than purchasing a new oven. Then again, you also have a good excuse for buying a new oven, should you wish to do so. :)
The other thing that you haven't mentioned is checking the internal temperature of the loaves. An inexpensive instant-read thermometer would help in determining the completeness of a bake. For enriched breads, an internal temperature of 190-195F is typical in completely baked loaves. For unenriched breads (no fats or sugars), an interal temperature of 205-210F is more typical of completely baked loaves.
By the by, you aren't cutting into the loaf before it reaches room temperature, are you? If you are, even a completely baked bread will seem gummy and under-baked in the interior. That is because the baking process isn't really finished until the loaf reaches room temperature. Hard to do, I know.
Paul
Replying to both of your here:
When I say the thermometer is fluctuating I don't think I explained properly. If I hang it from the centre of the rack, the reading will understandably be different from the sides. However, say I have left it in for a while, by the time I have opened the oven door and pulled the rack out so I can read it, I know the temperature has plummeted down. The reason I know this is because the first time I tried all this I couldn't see the dial so stuck my head in as far as I dared into the oven to see. From when opening the door and being able to read it, I could see it visually dropping fast (due to the door being open). Therefore I have only used it a few times due to the fact I don't like sticking my head in the oven (:-)).
I'm not sure what sort of thermostat it has or where it is. It is just a simple gas oven with eye-level grill. I have had the burners off when baking as I try and time the baking before or after a meal to utilise the heat of the oven. When having all this trouble before which led to buying the thermometer, I double checked the temperatures on a chart of what the equivalent was to make sure. If anything, I needed to bake bread at a lower temperature for longer, rather than having the oven on high and turning it down - the bread just over browned when doing that way.
Regarding calibaration, it might cost at least half the amount of new oven for that when adding the labour costs. Should the engineer say it needs a new part then there would be that too. I would stress though I don't believe it can be that much out as even allowing for variations of instructions on packets plus a woman's intuition when something is done; if this was the case I would have at least some of my cooking being burned or under done. As it is, it is only the bread making that I am having a problem with. As an example today: My buckwheat and wholemeal rose beautifully yet when it came out it was the same. Any longer and it would be burned on the outside, yet the inside was underdone and the bottom the same. When Abe was helping previously, I was telling him that when the top of the bread was done I would turn it over for 10 minutes to cook the underneath. I don't have this problem with cakes or Yorkshire puds or anything else. Nor do I have a problem leaving the bread until completely cold (even if my hubby does!) :-). The one thing I haven't done that you said is to use a thermometer to check the internal temperature. But how will that work with the timings? If say for example I checked after 20 minutes to find out it needed longer, but the outside was very well done, and the bottom still underdone, we are back to square one. On the example above there was more rise in the uncooked dough than when it was done!
The other issue I have is that even say I get this fine art perfected; having to have the oven on for so long at a high heat does affect the bills. I submit and check my utility usage online and there has been a definite rise from around June. At this time of the year if anything it should go down. I would like to get it right though if only for an occasional treat. Some of the recipes I have seen have been amazing.
are almost certainly underbred, hence the gummy interior. i had the same problem for a long time. I did not want to buy another over because I don't bake enough bread to make it pay for itself. I also saw wild varying temperatures on my gauge each time I opened the oven, yet the oven for very hot.
I solved the problem by placing an old unused cast iron grille plate on the bottom rack of the oven (the rack below the one that I was baking on). After preheating the oven long enough (in my case I run it for at least half an hour ahead of time but that could bee excessive) I could quickly check the temp and it now is very consistent.
The second and more important thing to do is to simply leaves the loaves in the oven longer, until it registers 205 degrees F in the center. If they start to burn, especially on the bottom, before the center is fully baked, then low the temperature 25 degrees F and bake it longer.
That technique works perfectly well but (for unrelated reasons) I went ahead and purchased a proper Dutch Oven. It needs to be in the oven, along with its lid (the lid should be on the rack for faster heating) , the entire time that the oven is preheating so that it is also as hot as the oven. When its up to temperature simply open the oven, slide the rack out, place the dough in the dutch oven, place the lid on it and slide it shut quickly (to not lose all your heat). I can now do this in approximately 10 seconds (with heavy duty gloves on) and I don't lose any noticeable amount of heat.
I did leave the cast iron griddle on the bottom rack as I use the dutch oven above it, it really does seem to help the oven keep a much more steady temperature inside the cavity.
Thank you BobBoule.
I did try using a small cast iron pan that even though small I struggled to lift (in view of not being able to lift things heaven knows why I even bought it). As I said, heavy items such as Dutch ovens, cast iron etc are out as I struggle with just normal items. I have had a mini convection oven suggested to me but space is a bit of problem but I must admit I am tempted to try and see if there is a way of moving things around and having the lightest items put away. Of course there is then the problem when wanting to use them! No easy answers at the moment.
I must admit after recent disasters I made a loaf in the BM last night and to be different, substituted some of the white bread flour with semolina. It turned out lovely with that distinct tangy sourdough taste shining through. Don't you just love it when things go right?
Walmart had a Paula Dean 2.75 (3.25?) Quart red oval ceramic dutch oven/covered casserole for US$26 awhile back that was great for 1.5-2.0 lb dough. Ceramic doesn't burn the bottom like cast iron seems to at the higher temps. I will preheat both the lid and casserole to 500 degrees Fahrenheit for 20-30 minutes then lower to 425, add the dough (I sprinkle a bit of corn meal on the bottom before adding the dough to avoid sticking; it will smoke a bit; just move quickly) for 30-40 minutes then remove the lid and continue baking uncovered for another 15-25 min at 375.
Just don't place the hot lid or oven on a cold stove top. When I pull mine from the oven I place both lid and casserole on oven pads or mits to keep it from shattering.
I've also used a large round stainless steel bowl inverted on top of the pizza stone with great luck. Simply mist the top of your dough and the inside of the pre heated stainless steel bowl when placing dough on preheated stone. Remove bowl after about 30-40 minutes. Then continue baking uncovered for 15-25 minutes until correct internal temp is achieved.
Have fun!
Thanks for the suggestions sfsourdough.
We don't have a Walmart in the UK and unfortunately most ceramic crockery is also too heavy. I have recently given a lovely Le Creuset lasagne dish away that isn't really that big, just a standard rectangular shape, because I struggled to lift it. Abe suggested a stainless steel bowl too, but I don't have one and when I priced them out, they were quite expensive - well on the way to that mini oven I am thinking of as an option:-). If I do buy it I will probably have to measure the internal capacity and go to a builder's yard to see what they have in the way of slate or stone. Again, would there be a problem retaining heat if it was lightweight? It is a nuisance being in poor health as it is so restricting. The other thought I had too was that from what I have seen and the way the loaves are described when cooked in an oven is that they are crusty or chewy. Is this correct? If so then maybe it is going to be completely out as I don't like chewy bread, nor can my teeth/partial denture cope with bread like that. I do tend to like either soft bread or a medium nutty texture bread if that makes sense.
... own all the ASDA superstores..
-Gordon
Indeed they do drogon, but even the big Asda's are nowhere near as comprehensive in stock :-)
So sorrybto here about your challenges. Dutch ovens are well suited to cooking country loaves.
Except for tiny 1 lb loaf Le Creusets every other Le Creuset I've known is ceramic over cast iron, and yes, they weigh a ton!
The ceramic casseroles I am speaking of come in 1.5 qt sizes with lids. If you can't lift a glass bread pan with dough in it though, which would be about 2 lbs. (1 kilo), you won't be able to bake anything I would imagine. How tedious for you.
You know the counter bread makers do a decent job. It would have to take up residence on your counter though as they are definitely heavier than a bread pan!
You are correct in that the whole point of sourdough bread is a nice crusty exterior with a hearty ("chewy"?) interior. So if tearing bread with your teeth is a problem you probably don't want to bake sourdough.
The recipes presented here can be used for plain white bread as well. Just let it rise regularly on your counter instead of stashing in the fridge for a day or two to develop the flavors. Softer white flour
will give you a more tender crumb too though less gluten means less rise.
Think about a bread machine perhaps?
Hmmm! sfsourdough, I don't think you have read my original post properly! If you had you would know I already have a bread machine and have been successful in baking sourdough bread :-D. Just done a delicious one substituting some of the flour with semolina, and also one with yeast water made from goji berries. The latter also contained chocolate chips and okara left over from making soya milk. I would just like a few successes with oven bakes though, especially as I thought I would 'get there' eventually and bought 2 banattons :-(. I have made the decision to move everything around and put a couple of lighter items in the cupboards to make room for a 20 litre mini oven. As Abe has had all his successes in one of these I hope to do the same. If all fails then at least I will have an eye-level oven for doing pizza ;-)
Just to confirm.
I will take on board about the inside temperature and aim for that rather than just going by the high temperatures and all the associated stuff like misting ovens, cast iron pans with water etc. After reading of someone's oven going kaput after doing the misting thing I think I will definitely pass on that. Apparently it can do nasty things to an electric oven! Many thanks for all your help, and in due course both in the gas and the new mini oven when I get it, I will report back on this: watch this space.