ITJB Vienna Bread - 5th Try But Still No Joy
My schedule cleared up enough that I could sneak in another test bake of this recipe last night. Based on yesterday's exchanges with Eric Hanner and MiniOven I made only a couple of adjustments from the previous bake, and in particular changed the rack and tile setup in my oven at Eric's suggestion. Here is a brief summary of this bake:
1. Continue with KAF All Purpose flour (11.7% protein)
2. Continue to exclude malt (don't have the proper malt required)
3. Continue dough development to just short of full gluten development
4. Add about 8-10 grams of additional water to bring "apparent" hydration to more acceptable level.
5. Continue two rises with thorough degassing between for bulk fermentation
6. Attempt to more carefully and evenly shape the dough
6. Remove upper tier of tiles from the oven and raise baking rack up (1 slot) to middle of oven
7. Continue to preheat to 375F then back down to bake at 350F after loading
Part of my original plan was to also implement MiniOven's suggestion for dark baking pans, but alas, I did not find them locally and had to order them.
In summary, there is both good news and less than good news in this bake. Eric's suggestion to remove the top tiles did pay off well, and the oven spring was much more even and controlled in this bake, where my shaping held up. That is the good news. The additional water in the mix returned this dough to a manageable hydration level that was much easier to work with. I turned out one good loaf and one where the "bottom" seam gave way and the loaf blew up. That part is my fault. The basic problem I have been trying to resolve, though, persists. Despite the changes and improvements in this bake I still have sides caving in. That is the less than good news. It is not quite as dramatic this time, but it is clearly still an issue. Here is a short pictorial review:
The loaf on the left is the one where I got sloppy in the shaping. I failed to pay attention to where the seam ended up, and so it ended up around to the right side in this picture. Because of a taper I allowed in that edge I could not readily rotate that seam to the bottom without ending up with a double crease in the top. I decided to let it be and take the consequences. I knew this seam would not hold, but it actually came out a little better than I imagined. I probably should have rested it and re-rolled it, but I did not. I did a better job shaping the other loaf, and I did center the loaves better in the pans prior to proofing.
Here the loaves are fully proofed, ready for the egg wash, slash and loading.
Here you can see how well the proofed dough fills the pans. That side seam in the left loaf never did proof out to touch the pan, but the oven spring filled that gap quickly. Nonetheless it remained the weak spot that failed.
It took 36 minutes to get the internal temperature up to 206F. You can see above that the loaf on the left has suffered a shaping failure and burst up on the inner edge where that side seam failed to hold. The above shot also shows the setup for this bake. No top rack or tiles, and the baking rack is up one level from before, leaving about 1 1/2" more space between the pans and the bottom tiles than in previous bakes. If that proximity to the bottom tiles was a deciding factor in the problem of the loaf bottoms caving in this should have resolved it, but in the end it made no difference.
The crosscut above shows the quite open crumb, the clear hourglass figure, and the doughy patches against the side walls of the loaf where internal pressures have compressed dough layers up against the side walls. Again. Note that this shot is of the better shaped of the two loaves. Also note that the oven spring is more orderly and the slash stayed reasonably well centered, indicating the spring in this loaf was pretty much straight up rather than distorting off to one side or the other as has been the norm in all my previous bakes. This was the main thrust of this particular test bake, and it was a success for certain. It is pretty conclusive that if I can properly shape the loaves, removing the top tiles will allow them to spring normally. Thank you Eric!
Since I was not able to bake one of these loaves in a dark pan I still don't have much new insight into the cave-in problem. I feel like the answer is right in front of me, but because I tend to suffer from tunnel vision when problem solving I am missing it. I plan to leave this and go on to other baking until my dark loaf pans come in and I have some non-diastatic malt on hand. At that point I will hopefully have achieved some distance from this issue so I can open the book and try this again from a standing start, by the book, doing my best to approach it as my very first encounter with this bread. That's todays thought anyway.
Thanks for stopping by
OldWoodenSpoon
Comments
What an interesting bake again!
Still those compressed areas near the tin; almost looks underfermented there, but well or overfermented towards the middle.....maybe extend the proof, but the height is by the book....still seems there is more dough than the pans want, and unwanted pressure is compacting the edges.
Your freshly shaped rolled loaves look different than I expect. Can the dough be stretched/rolled to remove the wrinkles prior to rolling up the dough? I think I would avoid tucking the ends, but lengthen the roll to fill the long dimension of the pan.
I think. Even though I aggressively (and I do mean aggressively) degassed this dough prior to shaping, by the time I took the pictures of it some new and pretty significant gas bubbles had formed. As to the shaping, I agree with your addendum comment: dark tins is not going to resolve the problem of these loaves caving in and I would add that shaping is not really the issue here either. Getting them both right will teach me something though, and when I solve the caving in problem I will get better loaves overall as a result. The other point is that this bake proves that shaping and oven configuration did cause the other significant problem of loaf distortion and radically uneven spring. Something good came from this iteration.
Thanks for your continued interest.
OldWoodenSpoon
I don't think darker tins is going to solve the problem.
First thoughts when I look at these loaves, and I have seeen your past attempts as well, are ' who is eating all of this bread'? ;-0
I know when I had loaves that looked similar to yours it was due to too much dough for the pan size I was using. When I cut down on the recipe everything turned out fine. Loaves just didn't have room to rise well.
I know make notes on how much dough my different pans will hold and my results have improved.
I know what it is like to get too focused on having a loaf turn out the way I want it too......but the loaves my kids really love are the ones I used to bake before I knew what I was doing....they like dense :-) go figure???? Now I am hard put to figure out how to recreate those loaves for them.....
Good Luck in your continued efforts and I am sure something will click as you move on to another baking project :-)
Janet
for the most part! If you ever saw me though, you'd know why I get away with it. :) We also have some in the freezer, and I have neighbors that always wave and always have time to stop and talk. They help me manage the "training" inventory.
Thanks for the good thoughts Janet.
OldWoodenSpoon
:-) Sounds familiar.....
I do all of my dough prep in front of a nice big window that faces our small and quiet street across from a lovely park where people walk all the time. Having lived here for over 20 years now I know most of the walkers..... Since discovering baking bread about a year and a half ago now I bake a lot ...when I have loaves to give out - which is often - I look for victims people walking by and when I see someone I take a loaf or rolls out to them :-)
Besides the friends and neighbors I give my experiments bread to I also make rolls for our garbage men, the employees at our local hardware store, our mail man, the clerks at the store where I do my weekly shopping and the owner of my favorite knitting shop.... actually , just about anybody is fair game :-) What doesn't get finished in our bread box goes out for the critters that run around our property.....
:-)
Janet
This is progress OWS and I wouldn't feel to bad about the outcome. These didn't fall over like the first.
I will be the contrarian on the dark pans. I think you will find the side crusts will get darker and stiffer/thicker and will support the upper part of the loaf. The only natural light color pans I have are small pullmans and they do bake totally different from all of my dark non stick.
My daughter baked a cake today and I noticed on the box the say if the pan is dark to subtract 20 degrees from the oven temperature. So they think it matters quite a lot.
In any case your crumb is more open than mine was but the over all bread looks pretty good from here buddy. I think you are being overly critical of your results at this point.
Eric
Overly critical? I've gotta disagree some, at least. I concede that it is no longer terrible, and that I am making progress on parts of this, but would you step back from those hour-glass shapes with the doughy racing stripes up the side walls in the crumb and say "Yeah, that's good enough."? I don't think so, and I don't really think you are suggesting I do that either. What I do hear you say though is "Lighten up!", and you're right about that. The overall bread is "pretty good". Actually, we've been delighted with the flavor and texture (the good parts at least). I've begun to take it too hard, and that's why I'm sure I need a break from this one for a bit. I'm glad I've decided to wait for the dark pans to come in, even though just a few minutes ago I conceded that I don't think they will resolve my problem.
I do love a contrarian though. They are always knocking holes in my tunnel vision so I'm forced to look around and see the rest of the problem, and you may just have done that for me here! A 20 degree temperature differential for shiny vs dark pans on a cake, eh? Maybe those that have been telling me I'm baking too cool have been right all along? If the 350F specified in the book is predicated on the typical workhorse dark pan with which a bakery was/is commonly (I think commonly anyway) equipped, then shouldn't I be baking at somewhere around 370 to 375F to compensate for using shiny "sweet breads and cakes" pans? Just as so many commenters have been trying to tell me? Does anyone know if the dark vs shiny adjustment is the same 20F for bread? What does your experience indicate Eric? MinniOven? ananda? Anyone?
I just got notice from Amazon/Chef's Resource that my pans will not be delivered until 7 to 10 days from now. I did not spring for the expedited shipping. I will end up waiting a while before baking this again, but I don't think I will make it that long before I can't stand it any more and have to test your/our newest theory on this bread.
Thanks Eric, for yanking my head up out of the flour dust, and for the continued thought and effort you give this/me. You have, once again, got me thinking. Always dangerous!
OldWoodenSpoon
I know you want it to be as good as possible OWS. And it is peculiar that this has taken so long to track down. But hey that's the fun of this isn't it?
You might give it a try at a higher heat one time. It certainly is logical. I've had such problems with pans I stopped using my glass pans all together since I didn't have a full set of the same size and type. I could never get everything to be done at the same time.
Cheers,
Eric
Even when it drives me crazy, like this one does, I love a good puzzle. I'm the same way with software. Nothing like a good bug chase! I will try the hotter bake for certain now that I have a rationale for the deviation from the published recipe. As you say, it certainly is logical. First though, I'd like to locate some good information on the what the differential should be. I'm hoping someone here on The Fresh Loaf will have some experience with it to get me started, but I'll try the Google oracle too.
OldWoodenSpoon
I have a whole bunch of Perl scripts I'll send you immediately!
I will leave town! Send me COBOL, FORTRAN, C. Send me FORTH or BASIC or ALGOL. You can even send me IBM SYSTEM-370 Assembler if you want. Send me just about anything, but don't send me Perl...
At least, not if you want it back (working), that is
OldWoodenSpoon
If a loaf is taller than wide
One should cool it on it's side
The weight of the mushroom top could cause a collapse of the sides. I find it helpful to wrap my sandwich loaves in a kitchen towel and lay them on their sides as they cool.
Here's something I cut and pasted from a post @ the "Bread Bakers Guild of America" Forum.
" Pullman Loaves;
When pullman bread begins to "star" when sliced, we call this "weak sidewalls." A number of things can cause this, so I am listing some that come to mind. You can solve the problem through process of elimination.
*Underbaking
*Overproofing
*Low protein of flour/ overall lack of dough strength
*Low dough-to-pan ratio (dough is overextended) "
In testing "Americas Test Kitchen" prefers dark baking pans. Shiny pans tend to reflect heat so the bottom and sides of the loaf may take longer to bake, or weaker side walls.
Jim
I think it is very interesting that this reference you provide suggests this is due to a "low dough-to-pan ratio (dough is overextended)". I have had many comments taking the opposite position: to much dough for the pan. They are discussing pullman loaves, but I suspect there are similarities to my own issues here.
Thanks for the comments and the reference
OldWoodenSpoon
I have not been following your trials with this bread so my comments and observations are new and fresh. First, those are nice looking loaves. "Perfect" loaves come in a white wrapper with various colored dots on the packaging and it is a wonder that anyone eats that "bread"!
Your bread says, "I was made by hand and in all likelihood, I taste great." If you personally do not like the look of the bread, I would heed Janet's comment about to much dough for the pan. Less dough and the rise and bake will be controlled by the pan more so than it is currently.
I think they look great and am guessing they have a taste to match,
Jeff
I appreciate the good thoughts and encouragement.
OldWoodenSpoon
You moved the rack UP? I wouldn't have done that if there was too much upper heat. Taking away the upper tiles maybe cooled the upper part of the oven but raising the rack put the heat back on them. ??? So it didn't really change anything. :(
Get those shiny pans closer to the lower tiles so they can absorb more heat! (Did that sound too commanding?) Shiny pan standard (without tiles) is to place the rim of the pan parallel to the center of the oven. If the heat source is the tiles, it makes sense to get the pans closer to them not further away.
Are we going to see any raisins and/or nuts in the next loaf? :) The distribution of bubbles is looking A+++
Yes, I did that! Innocent by reason of ignorance is my plea, and I'm sticking with that! But I'm surprised that you say it did not really change anything, because something was changed. The result was much improved in that the lopsided oven spring was sorted out. True, it did not affect (greatly) the central problem of the caved in bottom.
I made this particular change because, when I reviewed the recipe baking instructions, it said [baking surface in the middle] of the oven. So, I raised the "baking surface" rack to the middle of the oven. I would have done that earlier, but the top rack/tiles proximity precluded it. There are more test bakes in my future, so I'll be able to check this out yet.
Raisins or nuts? Sounds yummy but not until I can get it right "by the book". After that? This bread is so good I think golden raisins and chopped, toasted almonds would go really well. Until I see a good loaf and what the real crumb density and structure is, though, I can't be sure the loaf will be able to hold itself up with those additions. Surely, just a handful of each would not overload it though,would it? What toast that would make. :)
Thanks for checking back in Mini Oven
OldWoodenSpoon
Maybe Im an underacheiver but those look good to me ! LOL
http://www.baking911.com/pantry/list_kitchenstuff_pans_more.htm
Wow Mini, you are a never-ending source of great information! That is a great web site that I've never seen before. But I did not see any tips on how to darken my pans. Did I miss it? (I don't think high-temp spray paint is such a good idea) I did find some more valuable information on baking differentials for dark vs shiny pans though.
Thank You!
OldWoodenSpoon
I forgot to add I'm thinking a little rough sandpaper or boiling the outside of the pans in salt water or letting them stand in chlorinated water. All serve to knock the shine off aluminum pans. (See anything on what not to do cleaning shiny pans?) What else tarnishes aluminum or takes off that mirror shine? I don't have my trusty sand blaster anymore. I know the dishwasher will do it (!) but you want to protect the inside so it stays non-stick... tape? Electrical tape the edges together and a few heavy duty rubber bands to hold the tins together and toss the whole package into the next load.
When it/they come out, the surface is rough and feels awful so I would give it a quick wash and rinse in the sink, and if it still sends goose bumps up your spine while touching it, rub a drop or two of oil onto it. Soon you will have a nice dark patina on your once shiny pans.
new dark non-stick pans, I think I will leave my shiny ones shiny. I am impressed by your creativity in how to go about it though. Well done!
I really look forward to baking two loaves side by side, but the temperature conundrum will probably require at least two comparative bakes. Do I use the higher temp that serves the shiny pan, or the lower temp that serves the dark pan? One bake with one dark and one shiny pan at each temperature level is my conclusion. That way the only difference (yes, I promise to hold to just one variable this time!) will be the pan tint, in each of the bakes. The results will be a good illustration of the performance of each tint at each temperature. Sounds like I'll learn something, and that will make it a good day!
OldWoodenSpoon
Can't blame ya. If I had dark ones ordered I would wait as well. Now if I was stuck somewhere without postal service and 100 miles from the nearest store, I might try soot or even rubbing the outside with wet clay. But I'm not and you're not and who wants soot or mud all over their oven mitts?
By the way, I've polished aluminum that managed to get into the dishwasher... steel wool soap pads do a nice job (contrary to the 911 site.) :)
OWS,
I believe the legal position is that recipes are not able to be protected by copyright. A collection or an entire book may be but not an individual recipe. The ITJB recipes are no different from the hundreds of other breads baked and shared here for years. Certainly the changes one makes in process or ingredients further distances the original from the on line discussion. Talking about a book and a specific bread, benefits the author, which is why you see them come here for exposure.
Eric
is the subject of copyright in general, and this one of recipes in particular. First, I concede the legal point: You are correct. You piqued my curiosity though, so I did a very quick Google search on "recipe copyright" and one of the first returns was a FAQ at the US Copyright Office. Scroll down to "How do I protect my recipe" where I found corroboration for your point:
At the end of that answer there was a link to another item of further explanation on recipes where I found (in part) this, again from the US Copyright Office.
In the introductory section of their book, Stan and Norm make a specific point that the recipes are from Norm's lifelong collection of notes and formulas, not from combing through the works of others. There might be a case to make that this particular book containing recipes constitutes one of those "original works" that can be more fully protected by copyright compared to those deemed copied "from an existing work". I imagine Norm and Stan are settled on the status of their work, and it is up to them to argue the point if there is one to argue, not me.
None of the above is for any purpose other than that I found it interesting when you motivated me to look into it again. There you are, being my favorite contrarian again! I did not refuse to post the recipe solely because of my own (mis?)understanding of the legality or illegality of doing so. I refused to post the recipe because I personally think, legal or not, that I do not have the right do so. End of story. It is no different elsewhere in my life. I send friends and relatives my version of recipes I use that they request, but if I bake according to "the book" without substantive change as is this specific case, I send them to the library or bookstore instead. It's just me. Not better than those who do otherwise, and not worse than they either.
Last point, I promise: I agree with you too on the benefit to authors in being a part of this forum. That certainly is one of the reasons they come here for exposure. I think not posting the recipe, in this particular case at this particular time (because the book is so new), is of more benefit (or at least as much benefit) to the authors as to do so though. These blog posts and those of others keep the book in a focus of attention that interests and motivates others to want to try it for themselves. So they go buy the book if they can. Again, that's just me with one man's opinion.
Thanks for clearing me up on the legality Eric. Copyright is as sticky as honey. :)
OldWoodenSpoon
I tried the recipe today, with very different results from yours. After I divided the dough, I put one in a shiny pan and one in a dark pan, and baked them (for 40 minutes to get to the right temp) side by side. The dark pan had a slightly better rise, but no other significant difference. I did not get anywhere near the oven spring you did, but I also didn't get the hourglass shape. I followed the recipe exactly (using liquid malt), and the dough was extremely wet and sticky, but handled okay by the time it was ready to put in the pan.
on your test. It is interesting that the only difference you noted between dark and light pans is a small difference in oven spring. No notable difference in browning of the bottoms of the loaves, down inside the pans? I'm glad you did not have to worry about the collapsing bottoms. Trust me, that hourglass is not a pretty sight when you cut through the loaf.
OldWoodenSpoon
As did noonesperfect, I gave the recipe a shot yesterday. I followed the directions as perfectly as possible, with one (major?) exception: I don't have malt , either dry or syrup, so I substituted molasses, the taste of which I prefer over malt's.
The dough was very extensible and sticky. I feel I didn't develop the gluten sufficiently, but did pull an acceptable, if not really thin, window pane. Is this an artifact of egg enrichment? I usually go for dairy, and no egg, so my ignorance may be the real issue. ;) Bulk fermentation and proofing were at about 80℉ (a really nice November day with open windows and no heating or a/c) and achieved the desired expansion at about 80% of the low end times mentioned in the recipe.
I ended up with 535g of dough per pan. The dough, to my eye, was too gassy for what I consider to be optimal for panned, enriched, sandwich bread; even with aggressive degassing prior to pre-shaping, then final shaping. I much prefer small, even-sized alveoli. I believe the dough should have been punched down and allowed to double a second time.
The bread was baked in a 350℉ oven, on a stone, in tinned mild steel pans. Temps were verified by oven and IR thermometers. 205℉ internal temp was reached in 35 minutes, and the bread was turned out to cool immediately. The crust on all sides was nicely browned, but very weak compared to my usual milk enriched sandwich bread. Oven spring was Homeric! The dough, per direction, was just a smidgeon above the pan rim when slashed and moved to the oven. Finished loaf stood 5in. high, with a blow-out on one side. (This, I ascribe to the oven's possibly uneven heating, as blowouts always occur on the same side for single loaves, and toward the oven's center on multiple loaf bakes.) I cooled the loaves in an upright position, rather than on their sides, as I wanted to encourage collapse if it were going to happen. It didn't.
The crumb turned out very soft and weak, that is, not chewy, with small to large, unevenly distributed alveoli, looking very much like OWS's pictures. This bread reminded me of my grandmother's bread of nearly sixty years ago.
It is a tasty bread that requires thick slices if you don't want jelly in your lap. When I try it again, I will take advantage of home baking prerogatives, and retard the bulk ferment, allowing it to further develop before shaping and baking.
cheers,
gary
reporting in with your results Gary. It is curious that both you and noonesperfect both report a sticky dough. I have not encountered this problem at all. I have found that, when adequately hydrated, the dough is supple and silky smooth. Rather than extensible, I have described it, if anything, as tending toward over elastic, especially in bake 4 where I undershot the hydration pretty badly. I have never had to use flour on the board to shape these loaves yet, so for me at least, sticky has not been a problem.
On the point of dough development I should caution you that I don't have a Kitchenaid mixer so my mix times with my old Bosch are not very comparable. It is a real heavy duty workhorse, but the typical mix times tend to be anywhere from a couple to several minutes longer than most KA-targeted recipes specify. With that clear I will say that I have yet to take this dough all the way to what I would call fully developed, yet I have mixed for as long as 15 minutes in my most recent bake. That was getting close to fully developed, but not quite there. The bake I did that was intentionally underdeveloped went for 10 minutes.
I too like the taste of this bread. It makes excellent toast, and we have really enjoyed it both as French Toast and as Grilled Cheese sandwiches for lunch.
Keep after it till you get what you want from it!
OldWoodenSpoon
I tried making this today and had a horrible failure.
Now I feel your pain.
Horrible failures are no fun at all. What happened that makes you describe it as such?
I can say that I have not yet had a disaster with this bread, just acute dissatisfaction. They have all been successful enough that the evidence is gone! We've eaten it all, and have not thrown any of it away.
There is a great bread in there somewhere. Go back and try it again and you may find it. That's what I'm doing myself.
OldWoodenSpoon
Very little to no rise at all during the proofing stages.
I suspect my yeast is on its last legs.
It rose during the bake but took a lot more time to bake through. It eventually went in the bin.
Ill try again.
Dear Old Wooden Spoon,
My sympathies and admiration. Actually I find those pinched sides, which you poetically call an hourglass figure, quite cute, though I'm sure you'll disagree. But I do hate doughy bits in bread and yes, I share your frustration in trying to 'NAIL IT' once and for all.
Just my two cents' worth: firstly, following prescribed temperatures in recipes, no matter how rigorously tested, is one thing; adapting it your oven and your particular loaf, on that particular day is another. I understand, however, your trying to respect Stan and Norms' recipe.
Secondly, from going rapidly through your 5 bakes, it does seem like you had a very strong dough, probably exacerbated by the use of malt. Your eliminating that and using a weaker flour, plus adjusting source of heat in oven seems to have resolved so, if not all, of the problem. I should think your current 12% flour is OK. I use that for loaves all of the time. If I were you, I would just reduce the amt of yeast. Esp if you have found that you always get explosive results using instant yeast. For me, given the climate I live in, the qty of yeast is always an issue too. I think your loaves were higher, fuller than Eric's too, if I remember correctly? Also your crumb is airier. So it may be sth to do with what Andy pointed out at the beginning about a too-strong dough, and the sides not being able to support the weight of the top. In my limited experience with tinned loaves, I noticed that just a slight drop in temperature can affect the way the sides bake, and if they don't bake almost fully when I remove them from the tin (I usually remove loaves from the tin about 4/5 of the way into the baking so that the sides and bottom can dry out and brown), they feel fragile and are not ready to take the weight. So perhaps yours is a case of the bread being 'top heavy' so that it collapses onto its side. Maybe???
Thirdly, I think it was Eric who mentioned adjusting temperatures for dark versus light tins. It appears that the colour of the tin really makes a diff. I would not have thought so but have read it in many places, including Rose Levy Beranbaum, and who would argue with RLB. I will try to dig out the info in her book for you. I'm inclined to think it is more impt for cakes than breads, but who knows.
But kudos for your persistence. It really varies eh. Case in point: just this weekend I baked Hamelman's oatmeal raisin loaf. Baked it as per recipe, icluding qty of yeast, and boy did it take off. Just a slight tad bit more yeast than the last time, albeit with a diff flour but with similar protein level, and how differently it behaved. I ended up with a slightly denser loaf with a slightly yeasty taste and a doughy bit at the bottom that makes me wonder if it was under-proofed in the final fermentation or over-proofed while bulk fermenting. Or if it was due to the cinnamon impeding the yeast. Questions, questions.. My pt is I share your bafflement but at least you try. And try. And try. And lucky you, all that bread doesn't show on you!
If I had access to this Vienna bread recipe, I would give it a shot for your sake LOL