Starter sour but NO activity
I have several starters and bake with them often and I've never seen a starter problem like this.
I took a sample of my brother-in-laws starter home with me last week.I had originally given my brother in law some starter 1 year ago and he was baking with it every week and maintained it with whole wheat flour. The starter ( and his bread) is now VERY sour which is totally different from how it was when I gave it to him and that's why I wanted a sample. I understand how feeding schedules,temp,flour,etc can all impact a starter but the problem I'm encountering started when I got it home.My BIL continues to bake happily with his starter. An interesting note is that his rises can be quite prolonged-anywhere from 6-16 hours. I thought that was why his bread was so sour.
I fed the starter and put it into the refrig after getting it home,last week.The trip was short and uneventful and the starter should not have suffered from the transport. I brought it out Wednesday,discarded all but a few tablespoons,added a few tablespoons water and flour and let it sit on the counter,expecting immediate activity, since it was a well used starter. I repeated this twice a day for several days,tried using some rye flour and even tried keeping it in a warm environment after the second day of no activity.Nothing! I think I've seen maybe 1 bubble. It is now Sunday and no bubbles BUT...it gets very sour.So the lactobacillus is active. This morning I deliberately added a small amount of the original starter (mine) this was derived from. I expected at least a little activity by tonight since that is a viable starter. Nothing but VERY sour.No off smells or appearances-just looks like paste and tastes very sour.
I will persist but I wonder if I'm just capturing a new yeast and starting a new starter rather than dealing with the old.
Any thoughts?
Even if the flour introduces new yeasts, the bacteria profile is in the starter sample. This will lead to a selection of the yeast that will build and grow in the starter. I would bet that the starter will come back and very similar to what it was before. A BIL starter.
You will have to handle it like reviving a neglected refrigerator starter. There is also the chance that the pH is too low so a bigger feeding ratio is needed to raise the pH. I would use a small portion of "just sour" starter like 20g with 100% hydration using 100g flour and just watch it for 24 to 48 hrs. Meanwhile ask your BIL some Q's and details on how & how often he lets it mature outside the refrigerator. Maybe his starter could also use a yeast growing phase. Esp. if he finds it loosing power.
Maybe something between your two methods is what you're searching for if you want your bread more sour.
Another possibility would have been that the starter was fed before you brought it home, then diluted again and chilled before the yeasts got going. Then the second feed contained even less yeast and the bacteria took the advantage. If this was happening with slow yeasts which were selected thru BIL's feeding habits over a longer period of time then the starter might not only be more sour but the yeasts slower. Your rapid feeding slowing yeast growth because the yeasts couldn't produce fast enough. Maybe you have indeed two different cultures. Just out of different feeding habits.
Mini
The starter FINALLY has some activity! I suspect the inoculation with the active starter (BIL's starter origin 1 year ago) is what finally got it started. A bit of a cheat but I suspected it would survive the adverse sour conditions as it's from a sourdough culture that has survived 70 years of "passing down"-it must contain a durable yeast.That is why I passed it to my BIL. I figured it would be difficult to kill.
Mini Oven, I always appreciate your perspective and wisdom. It is so easy to get caught up in the problem and not see the big picture.
For the feedings I had been taking a small amount of the sour starter and feeding it-discarding most with each feeding in an attempt to get some yeasties going.Pretty much what you had suggested. I have had to do this (successfully) a few times with a starter that had gotten forgotten in the bottom,back drawer of my refrigerator or developed "off" characterisitcs. I'm the one with all the starters. :) But each one is small.
I asked for the sample of his starter because I was fascinated that it was so different from the starter I had given him just 1 year ago. I wanted to make a loaf using my method and his starter and see if the loaf was so sour. His whole wheat sandwich bread is mouth-puckering! I don't necessarily like sour bread but I wondered if it would be a way to develop another flavor profile on some of my savory loafs. I suspect the truth is that the prolonged rises are what's generating the sourness.
As for how he feeds/maintains his starter, I'm going to have to ask for a lot more details.When I gave him the starter, my instruction was to discard(or bake) half and feed once a week, keep it out for a few hours after a feeding and then put it in the refrigerator. He likes simple and zones out with any complicated directions.
I don't know his recipe for bread except it's WW flour,water,salt,starter and that it can have a prolonged rise- but they do live in a cool house built into a hillside in the deep woods heated by wood.I'm sure that has a lot to do with the prolonged rise-long and cool! He uses the Tassahara book for all kinds of recipes (bread related- but I think they are yeast based). The texture/crumb on his WWbread was even and moist with great gluten formation and shaping but so surprisingly sour. SLiced thin and toasted with a schmear of a cheese to cut the bite and it would be great-or as a rye! So different from mine (with the same starter!) but he loves his bread. All that matters.
I will continue the generous discard and feeding several times today and see where it gets me.I'll let you know how the first loaf goes but it may not be til next week d/t my work schedule. Probably I'll start with just a simple,WW Italian (I like a tablespoon of oil and poss honey) with a long,slow rise to emulate what he does,then I'll try my recipe to see how the sourness is.
This is fun!
Due to a pantry disaster today, this starter never got fed beyond the AM feed. The good news is that it doubled in about 6 hours! One or two more feedings and I think I will have an active starter back. It was still very sour this am but definitely yeastier.I will taste it again before I feed it tonight.Interesting.
living "...in a cool house built into a hillside in the deep woods heated by wood." I'd take my time too! Glad to hear it's yeasting.