Sourdough starter

Sounds like level Tbs. of orange juice and heaping Tbs of WWflour.  If so add a little bottled water.   Mini Oven

You can add a bit more juice if needed. All flours absorb different amounts of moisture. The consistency isn't critical but I think the yeasts grow better when making a new starter if it is a bit wetter than you describe. It should be stirable but not runny.

Hey Chuppy!  I've lost you.  Come back with your comments.  How was day 4?  I was looking at mine today (loosely covered with plastic wrap) and see little bubbles and it tends not to separate.  No difference in height.  I am temped now to add another tablespoon of flour to thicken it up and see if the bubbles come back and maybe raise it.  Mini Oven

Chuppy, are you seeing any life yet? It should be waking up any day now. Give it a vigorous stir several times a day--it seems to help.

Mini Oven, you can thicken up your starter once you see bubbles. It will rise higher when it is thicker.

Now that it is thicker, the bubbles are a little bigger, and the mixture is not separating so I'm not stirring it anymore.  Rise?  I'm not sure but it smells good. I will put it into a glass to watch it better.  
Chuppy, like the Freudian slip, loves <> loaves.  Until tomorrow, Mini Oven

Today the starter looks thick and ran out of gas.  Right after I posted the above, I poured or scraped it into a glass and in doing so I think I popped all the bubbles.  It did have more after that and then it exausted the food.  I went to bed.  Still smells in order but didn't really rise.  I will take out one Tbs and to it add one spoon flour and one spoon water and keep an eye on it.  The kitchen has 21°c.    --Mini Oven

Sourdough-guy, thought I'd try your advice for Chuppy. (We have split ends on this thread, one at the top and here.)     Put my 10g of stirred up starter in a bowl and added 50g water and 50g flour (1:5:5)...  Nice mixture, if you stir it fast with a spoon it can form a ball but if you try to spoon it, it's a glop.   Now to wait and watch.   --Mini Oven

Don't give up on your starters! How many days old are they now? I think mine was about 2 weeks old when I first used it in dough. I think you guys are almost there. Have you tried adding a tiny bit of vinegar or ascorbic acid (vitamin C)? Sometimes that makes a huge difference. Another thing that sometimes works, and I don't know why, is to pop the starter in the fridge overnight and then take it out the next morning and continue with your normal routine feeding. No matter what, keep stirring and discarding and feeding.

Yes, by all means go ahead and bake some yeasted bread while you are waiting for the sourdough to be ready. You can practice your shaping skills!

Do you mean how long after starting a starter did I use it in bread?  


One time I took a spoon of starter out to feed and didn't want to waste the rest so I threw it into my poolish for the loaf I was making at the time.  After 10 hours, I finished mixing my loaf but added com. yeast so I have no idea if it would have worked on it's own,  I just thought of it as flavor.  Normally 2 or more weeks old. 


I did get a loaf, that rose on it's own, my first loaf with my Austrian starter.  The starter had up to that point not doubled as expected after feeding it but after 4 hours I used it anyway.  It had bubbles and smelled cheesy, yeasty, sweet and sour.  It worked!  The next time I fed the left over starter, it doubled.  It is nice not to get so stressed out over a starter for a change.  Dry chips to bread? About 6 days.  It's a strong starter so I have to shorten my fermenting times.  I like Susan's method.  --Mini Oven

Ok, it's 4:30 in the afternoon and I got signs of life, bubbles the size of say the "O" on the computer but not lifting much they pop when they reach the surface, maybe one cm. higher.  But I have made bread dough with less. Smells mild sour and flour, and in order. No alcohol smell.  7 hours after mixing 1:5:5.  Now what?  OK checked with the thread at top of page and Sourdough-guy says 12 hours, just let it rise.  Looks like I get to stick it into the fridge overnight.  I'm set up for a winner!   
My instinct says to feed it now and make bread dough in the morning.  Getting too technical drives me almost nuts!  Waiting for it to double seems crazy.  It smells right and that is what I cook with, my nose.  It is 9:30 in the evening.  --Mini

    

Chuppy, I think we are about 12 hours difference.  China has no DST and is in one time zone so the sun comes up pretty early now.  Checking on the starter,  my instincts were right but waiting over 12 hours did no real harm.  I have a cool kitchen so left them on the counter top.


My Austrian starter had peaked and will use less than 1/5  loaf weight in a recipe.  For me that means for a one kilo loaf or 1000g, I will add less than 200g starter.  When I use 200g, and the starter has gone over the peak, it will only make it too sour, so I will reduce it now to 150g in my recipe OR take 50g of starter add 100g flour and 100g water and let it multiply and start my dough in 4 hours with 200g of starter with just enough left over to continue my starter.   (or do both, I have enough flour and starter)


My new starter is just peaking, so to speed it up, I will take the above 50g/100g/100g or (1:2:2) and apply it to my new starter. 


It looks like I'm set up to make two loaves each with a different starter.  I will have my own race and make comparisons.  It is 8:30 am and three loaves are in the making.  1. 150g Austrian peaked starter   2. 200g Austrian starter    3. 200g Chinese Breakfast starter   All with same ingredients and weights.--Mini Oven

Can't wait to hear the results....sounds like you are going to have a lot of bread on your hands!

L_M

Well I have the results but I'm having a hard time writing, transfering what I wrote in to this little box.  Guess I'm not technical enough.  When I copy and paste, I start out very grey and at a -3 rating!  yikes!  Also my table gets scewed.  What's the trick? --Mini Oven
At least I've got lots of bread to chew on......

doing?  Fall off the planet?  Got any aliens?  Mini Oven

That takes presidence.  Are you at Perdue?  I was there many years ago for a Youth Jamboree, "Joy for You and Me"   Sang in the band.  Anyway, I did get my starter to loaf.    Am posting my results.    --Mini Oven

I've been racking my calcified brain trying to figure out the best way to present my little experiment.  It started in the comments above.  Set up by testing a new starter with a (1:5:5) ratio (starter: water: flour) in the morning and by afternoon, my second older starter was also being tested.  Also (1:5:5)  just for fun.  When the 12 hours were up to test the starter, both starters were at same foamy bubbly stage.  I left them out on the countertop in my 20-21°c kitchen overnight. (This is when I should have put them into the fridge but I didn't.) 

The plan was to make three one kilo loaves: 1) with an over-ripe Austrian starter, 2) with a refreshed Austrian starter and  3) with a new refreshed (oat starter converted to wheat) Chinese Breakfast starter.   2) and 3)  will be racing each other.

That was the plan, this is what happened.

The next day, I started measuring but somehow threw out too much Chinese Breakfast starter before I realized my mistake.  No problem, refresh again to get the right amount for my recipe.   And from what I'd been reading, an extra refreshment wouldn't hurt anything, probably help things a bit.  In looking over Susan's Recipe I thought I would add a sponge or preferment to the 2) and 3) loaves by  dividing the water and flour adding egg white,sugar, salt and oil after preferment time was up.

Recipe:            1)         2) 3)          sponge/ loaf

Starter               150g       200g

egg white           40g         40g

water                300g       275g         (250g,25g)

salt                  10g         10g                (salt seemed too low)

sugar                10g         10g

olive oil           15g         15g

flour                500g       475g         (250g,225g)

total 1025g        

I went ahead and mixed my ripe Austrian starter into dough and started to wait, and wait, fold and wait, fold and wait.   Put it into a proofing bowl and I panicked around 4:00 in the afternoon and added commercial yeast softened in a little water.  It was Saturday and I needed bread for Easter.  Let it rise, knocked it down, split into 1a) and 1b),  shaped and proofed in two lined bowls for two 500g loaves.  By 10:00 pm  1a)  went into the oven.  Meanwhile I had already mixed my preferment (1:1.25:1.25) for loaves  2) and 3) and put them into a 18°c room overnight.

 Note:  Ratio is (starter:water:flour) In the recipe water, oil and egg are combined.  Flour is AP Chinese white flour sold for steamed buns and cakes and low protein so one egg white has been added to the recipe for better handling and rising of dough.   Following (ratios) are ( amounts) and then hours that  mixture has been allowed to stand, covered. 

1)Austrian (1:5:5) (20g:100g:100g)  5+12 hours  (1:2.4:3.3)  (150g:355g:500g) 6.5 hours (9g c.yeast + 10g water)  6 hours  Baked

2)Austrian (1:5:5) (20g:100g:100g)  5+12 hours  (1:2.5:2.5) (20g:50g:50g)  4 hours  (1:2:2)  (50g:100g:100g)  7 hours (1:1.25:1.25) (200g:250g:250g)  11.5 hours overnight  (1:0.11:0.32)  (700g:80g:225g) 12 hours   Baked 

3)Chinese B (1:5:5) (10g:50g:50g) 12+12 hours (1:2.5:2.5) (20g:50g:50g)  5 hours  (1:2:2) (50g:100g:100g) 7 hours  (1:1.25:1.25) (200g:250g:250g)11.5 hours overnight (1:0.11:0.32)  (700g:80g:225g)  13 hours    Baked

Upon awakening (Easter), ran to my preferment and could see that the Austrian was twice as high as the Chinese Breakfast.  The Chinese Breakfast had not risen much.  Now here I'm are supposed to wait for Chinese Breakfast to catch up and double and loose the race, right?  Wrong!  Today I have to suddenly go off on a day trip and will be back in the evening.   The SD's will be on their own today and I will see what's up in the evening  so I added the rest and remaining ingredients, kneaded and cuddled them a little and stuck them into a 17° room for the day. 

When I returned, I folded them and parked them over bowls of warm water ( cool  enough that I could hold my hand underwater without jerking away).  Folded again and let dough rise over warm water:  loaf 2) in glass 2.5 casserole,  loaf  3) ceramic 2.5 casserole.   I was not too happy with the dense sour loaves but did take a picture.  

Taste:

1)  Very sour,  ate some for breakfast but not much.  too sour.   Getting more sour as days go by.  The dogs want to know when they get it.  

2)  Sour, but  dense.  Prefer a little less sour.  Flavor not same as first loaf with this starter 3 weeks ago.   Tasty crust.   The better of the three loaves   Four days old still edible.   Still would not brag with this loaf.  Hubby won't  eat it.  

3)  Sour, but rather bland.  Prefer a little less sour.  Has a little more flour taste than the other loaves.  Big bite of four day old bread creates a ball of dough in mouth. 

Other observations:

In mixing two starters with equal ingredients, identical bowls, spoons, etc., I couldn't help but notice the differences the starters made in stirring and kneading.  The texture of the starters were different and carried through to the preferment and dough.  The Austrian starter had more stretch and was coarser.  The Chinese B. starter creamier and thinner with a flatter texture.   They were so different, that if I took the labels off, I would still know which was which.

I doesn't help that my new mini oven has a cold spot in the middle on the bottom on the oven.  I  was having trouble getting loaves out of my casserole.  When looking at cut loaf pictures it is easy to see that the bubbles start at the outside bottom and move toward the middle,  this results in wedging the loaf in the pot, volcano shaped tops and under-developement of the bottom center of loaf.  The ceramic casserole was parked onto a dark metal disk on the rack, glass not, too dangerous.  Lids were left on until loaf was done otherwise top would burn.  Picture forth coming.  Somewhere along the line I mixed up ratios, instead of using (starter: flour: water)  I used (starter: water: flour)  this was consistant in this work because it makes sense to add water before flour.

 Mini Oven

there is no hope for me. I think I learned a lot reading your threads today. (catching up while the kids are at grandma's, which ain't often) I think minioven and chuppy, the more I learn, the less I know. Oh well, as they say, it's the journey not the destination....

                                                                                     Audra

Audra, I must share that I too, am nurturing Sourdough Lady's starter formula but there is absolutely no drama in my kitchen. The starter is one week old and it does just what it is supposed to do.

New and Old Starters

I really enjoyed following the installments of the Chuppy/ Mini Oven fusion of Star Wars and Babette's Feast. I was dismayed when the heathen vandal destroyed Chuppy's chance at victory for once and for all. We can hope for a sequel!

I would encourage you to try the rye sourdough starter if you can keep those vandals in check!  I used Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye flour purchased from a store that moves a lot of flour so it should be fresh. I substituted fresh squeezed grapefruit juice because I had grapefruit on hand. I also had frozen pineapple juice that I chose not to use because it is sweetened and the starters I've made with much sugar go to alcohol and/or get bitter. I'm not sure if this starter success is the result of good chemistry or good Karma.

My white starter is a potato water and dry yeast formula that is now about 9 months old and remains wonderful in spite of a lot of neglect.

Sourdough is some of the best fun you can have in the kitchen and as you can see it makes for a great storyline!

If the planets are aligned correctly the following link will take you to the excellent instructions of SourdoLady for building a starter.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wild-yeast-sourdough-starter

I haven't mastered the simple ways to insert a link as of yet.

giving up.  Sometimes I go on and on but please don't get too mixed up and think this is complicated.  It's not.  I'm good at going off on tangents.  I'm a confessed experimentor and even in making billiard balls (reference to size & density only), I came up with two of each starter. (the more to experiment with)   Speaking of which.... I ended up with 20g of starter: 40g water: 100g flour  for each billiard ball.  Now I'm off looking for JMonkey's NY SD before I forget what I want to do.  

I still have to solve my oven heat distribution problem.  I can put my stainless stone on the bottom, it works quite well, with parchment, but not with a casserole (danger of super nova.)  If I use a long preferment, my flour gluten can't hold out and I get moon rocks. so far the best solution FOR ME is to make sourdough bread with a combination of starter and commercial yeast.  That is accepted fact in MY kitchen.  So the idea behind the billiard balls is to develope flavor in the starter, add to a poolish and then develope the yeast like it was cake yeast.  I think.  or Just crumble into 60g water, and let it warm up and foam (sponge) and use the right amount in JMonkey's recipe.  Then chill overnight and bake in the morning.  Anyone who could actually follow that can make suggestions.   

Come to think of it; isn't NASA developing an oven for the space lab?  I bet bread baking would clean up that wet dirty sock aroma they have up there!  SD sock starter anyone?  Could that be an invection oven?  If you put a steel ball into the middle of the dough to attract the heat and bake it, would that mean the crust is on the inside?  Something to think about.....Mini Oven

Mini Oven, everybody really enjoys your Tales From the Fermenting UnderWorld! I also try to look at things with a sence of humor. I was doing rolls several weeks back, and they were finished their second rise and were ready to be baked for dinner. I went to pick up my 4 year old (only a few blocks from my home) oven should be ready by the time I get back, hubby will be home in about half an hour, right on schedule! no. Emily ran inside, dropped her coat on the floor, and as she ran through the kitchen she went right over to the rolls waiting to go into the oven, and as I yell she takes her hands and goes pop, pop, pop, very quickly and very hard on the top of each one. She looked at me and smiled her biggest smile, and said that was fun mama and ran off to play. I let them rise the best I could in the time I had, but mine never look the same after they've had a , let's say an accident! There has been lots of accidents. But I have just enough ones that come out right to keep me going and not give up. The THREE that have been textbook perfect, have been recent. I'm just glad I found you guys! I'm not alone in this battle! Boy I really look up to the people in bakeries now more than ever! But I guess if we had $3500.00 proofing chambers, and humidity control regulators, we might have a higher percentage of sucesses. But I believe the old saying "Its the journey, not the destination". Hey I read somewhere on here your going to Shanghi this weekend. Be careful, and have a good time. I hope you find a lot of baking goodies! There's always room for just one more thing!

                                                                                   Audra

Those aren't accidents, That's personality!   And your personality creator will be helping you one day.  I think she's saying she wants to help now.  You show me a 4 yr old that doesn't want to play with dough!  (She must have seen you do the poke test.)  Thanks for the good wishes.  In my searching for maybe a women's club that might know where I can find bread flour, I stumbled upon a new expatwomen.com  very interesting.   I am not the only alien!  It's a funny thing when I'm on this site, this one, just before I hit the (post comment) button a melody pops into my head.....  (BeeGees) ...and she had fun, fun, fun, til her daddy took the T-bird away ay ay   .... Have Fun  Mini Oven