My Trials With T80 FLour
Recently on TFL we have had a number of threads with people asking about type T80 flour, and some threads asking for help with dough that became more gloppy or even lost their strength over time. A few days ago I ran into both of these things.
I had gotten some type T80 flour imported from France. I don't think that all T80s are the same, not at all. I have read that much of the flour milled in France comes from wheat grown tin the US and Canada, for one thing, and then there are various milling techniques. My T80 flour came from France, via L'Epicure. It is the product of a French mill: Le Moulin d'Auguste - ORGANIC Wheat Flour - T80. Supposedly this makes for a flour closes to "traditional" French flour. is not not labeled as containing any added malt or enzymes. I had already baked with T65 from the same flour line and that seemed normal and pleasant to work with.
This flour was very different. All my trials below used dough that was mixed by hand and I used my normal process for making straightforward yeast or sourdough breads.
First try - 65% hydration sourdough
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A standard sourdough, about 30% starter, 65% hydration (including the sourdough, more like 67%). The dough seemed wetter and a little stickier than a US AP flour would at that hydration. Kneading and stretching didn't do much to tighten it up. Between stretches the dough relaxed excessively and the S&Fs didn't develop enough elasticity to completely counterbalance the extensibility. After the second S%F, the dough started to lose its strength and spread out. It also got more sticky and seemed to become wetter and wetter. Eventually it became impossible to develop any strength at all. I gave up and threw the dough away.
Second try - 58% yeasted
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I thought that maybe the starter was too acidic for this flour. Alternatively, maybe this flour cannot tolerate too much water. To simplify the diagnosis I used yeast instead of sourdough and went to 58% hydration. This dough acted much like a US AP loaf at 65% hydration. It had no problems and did not deteriorate. It produced a normal loaf that tasted good but didn't have any exceptional qualities.
Third try - 62% yeasted
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To test out the idea that this flour is exceptionally sensitive to the hydration I mixed up a yeasted dough with 62% hydration. This dough got wetter and stickier as time went on, although not as bad as the first try. By the time it had fermented enough, the dough was overly extensible and had little elasticity (but it hadn't melted into a puddle). It acted something like a very high hydration dough, maybe 90%. So either I could treat it like ciabatta dough or I could pour it into a loaf pan. I went with the pan. My 300g of flour produced a dough that in the end had an unusually low volume. I transferred it into a 3 X 3 X 8 inch Pullman pan, let it rise, and baked it lidless. The backed loaf had a surprisingly open crumb and an excellent flavor.
Fourth try - 57% sourdough
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Now that I knew that too much water in the dough led to trouble, I made the fourth dough mix using sourdough and kept the hydration to 57% including the flour and water in the starter. This dough felt like a bread made with US AP flour with a hydration of 65% or so. Once again, the dough did not deteriorate over time. OTOH it didn't seem to develop the gluten strength it should have either. During the 3-hour proof a tear developed in the upper surface. The tear was about where I would have mad a score line so I incorporated it into the scoring design. This loaf baked up into a fairly standard looking loaf except that 1) it baked quickly, probably because of the low hydration, and 2) the crust didn't brown as much as usual.
Conclusions
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This flour can make good loaves of bread but it is very fussy about the hydration levels. I'm not sure that either the flavor or crumb came out good enough to be worth the trouble. Maybe more mixing time in a mixer would have made a difference but I haven't tested that thought.
If anyone can shed any light on the strength vs hydration characteristics of this flour I would be very interested.
TomP
I checked back and my last order from L’Epicerie was 8/10/22 ! I didn’t realize how long it’s been I got 44# of t80 organic. Previously a year before in 2021 I purchased 22# t65 organic and 6 months before that I also purchased 22# t65 organic.
I never had any of the problems you describe with dough degradation. I do know that I used less water with these flours but I always start with way less water anyway for every formula the first time I make it.
As to origin of the grains / flour as you noted the company states very clearly that this flour is grown in France , using French grains and milled in Normandy. There is absolutely nothing from the US or Canada in the le Moulin d’Auguste .
I had planned to place an order when the weather is cooler so that the flour isn’t sitting anywhere in a HOT UPS truck.
i will certainly post back when I do get an order. c
edited to add link about wheat crops in France. Drought and excessive rain have been problems and conditions are difficult.
https://www.google.com/search?q=drought+in+France+wheat+crops&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS676US676&oq=drought+in+France+wheat+crops&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigAdIBCTE0NDA1ajBqN6gCGbACAeIDBBgBIF8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I have not used this specific flour, but have experienced similar behaviours from other flours. If it was me, I would try using the 'shaggy' SD biga I have been posting about with such a four for an easier to handle SD loaf. Might allow to nudge the hydration up a little for the SD too.
I'm surpirsed at the difference in flavour of the 58% and 62% yeasted loaves, all things being equal except for hydration.
Moe, I was thinking of you as I went through these trials! I was surprised too. I'm not so sure that the words "except for hydration" convey the differences. The difference was between dough and glop. Something must be going on chemically to change the structure so much, and perhaps, as a chemical change, it also affected the flavor.
It’s been a rare happening but when I’ve had a total glop situation I weigh out salt and flour and add increments proportional to the 2% ratio and save the dough. It’s worked perfectly. I’ve only had to do it a handful of times in the years since I mostly left yeast baking recipes behind and started on the Sourdough adventure. I’m sorry you have experienced this with the t80.
In looking at the many articles about the weather in France in 2023 which is when your purchase was likely harvested I’d expect that the flour could be affected. I believe someone on here last year said that drought causes higher protein in wheat and also a smaller harvest. Not sure if a higher protein affects the flours ability to accept water. Lots to think about.
That's very interesting. I have extra T80 to play with and I think I'll give it a try.
Tom, think of me again when you plop a couple of the pan loaf slices into the toaster. 😊
I have never used First Clear but many TFL’ers did in the past from US sources. The link explains better than I and may reflect your t80 performance.
In reading this it is noted that both t80 and t110 are First Clear flours with higher protein but lower gluten ability. Thus your findings with the glop feature. Hope this helps. I would simply add a high gluten flour to your t80 and proceed from there. c
https://www.google.com/search?q=What+is+t110+french+flour+in+usa+is+it+first+clear%3F&sca_esv=e7ba6dc809002f5c&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS676US676&hl=en-US&biw=414&bih=716&sxsrf=ADLYWIJXLyxdI6JSW_F3lKgQkTWVXbWOUA%3A1726407147121&ei=6-HmZqSJB4m15NoPtqXCsAg&oq=What+is+t110+french+flour+in+usa+is+it+first+clear%3F&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIjNXaGF0IGlzIHQxMTAgZnJlbmNoIGZsb3VyIGluIHVzYSBpcyBpdCBmaXJzdCBjbGVhcj8yBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRirAkjLXFCPGliXVXACeAGQAQCYAWOgAbYMqgECMTm4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhWgAvEMwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICBxAhGKABGAqYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwQxOS4yoAe3bQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
That link returns a Google search page. Are you thinking about one of the results in particular?
I've used first clear flour from several US sources in the past and it's always been strong and reliable despite some things I've read. I got it for making some rye bread recipes but I've made bread using 100% first clear and they came out very well.
As I understand it, first clear is a remnant that's left from the streams that produced white patent flour. So it's not really like more coarsely sifted flour. Rather, there is less endosperm that you would otherwise have gotten
and probably a different blend of bran, germ, etc.More accurately, you get more of the very outer endosperm and less of the inner. There is also a second clear, which is brownish and considered good only for animal feed.There were just a number of different articles . I haven’t had a chance to read all of the references. I hadn’t seen anyone use 100% First Clear on TFL as far as I remember. David Snyder used it . I’m thinking a search through the TFL archives could lend insight. As to the difference in French vs USA First Clear I’m sure there is significant variation. The t80 I got had very very light flecks in it. I know I used it for baguettes and in looking back I added other flour such as semolina . The dough was very soft but not gloppy and definitely not sticky. I always chilled it then shaped it cold . Had very nice results with that method.
First clear has popped up on TFL from time to time. Here's one of mine:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/524907#comment-524907
Ian used it a cider/rye/potato bread here:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/58427/apple-cider-rye-potato-bread
Heee is a link to a discussion. Scroll a little way down to proth’s description of what it really is . There are misconceptions as to how it’s achieved. She was/is an authority on baking breads and flours.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44413/clear-flour
Bit of a mystery to me Tom.
I would kill for some real T80 to play around with, but I'm not going to mortgage my house for that, don't have the importers here for French flour that you've got available to you.
My thoughts were that different mills perhaps make very different flour. Fabrice Cottez (Boulangerie pas a pas) usually uses it at about 70% hydration (in combination with some T65), and just tonight I was reading about this other guy using T80 at 80% hydration to produce beautiful breads.
-Jon
What an artist Fabrice Cortez is! I love his sense of humor and his intelligence! I copied the recipe from the Reddit link. He’s an amazing talent as well. Love those tart shells!
Hi, Tom.
Excuse me if you already know what follows:
French flour designations refer to the ash content of the flour. This is a proxy for the degree of extraction, i.e., the "whiteness" of the flour. In this country, most high-extraction and whole wheat flour from large mills is reconstituted after the bran, germ and endosperm are separated. Some smaller mills produce whole wheat and high-extraction flours the old fashioned way - stone milling (as opposed to roller milling) and various amounts of bolting (sifting).
Now, the flour's behavior may be more a reflection of protein content which, at least for most wheat flour, is a good proxy for gluten content. French flour, as I understand it, generally has a protein content around 9-10%, while American all purpose flour is commonly around 11.5% and "bread flour" around 12.5%.
French T55 is closest to American white flour in ash content/degree of extraction, from what I have read.
Do you or Caroline know the protein content of your French T80 flour?
David
Both t65 and t 80 are listed as 10% protein. The L’Epicerie company that sells the French flours does a good job of explaining the ash content/ milling process.
I know in a previous discussion a couple years ago there was mention of weather conditions affecting the grains in France, I’m sure also in this country . Higher protein was noted when drought conditions existed with smaller harvest as well. There are so many variables with flours that one really has to be extremely flexible as far as hydration and handling.
Good to see you posting. Hope all is well with you and your family. c
Hi, Caroline!
We are just fine, thank you. I posted a new recipe here just a while ago.
American wheat flours differ from French flours is several ways, as I understand it. Except for pastry flours, American flours use Hard wheat varieties. Traditional French wheat is soft red wheat, I think.
Also, most medium to large American mills blend wheat varieties to produce a consistent product from year to year. I imagine smaller mills that use locally-grown wheat might produce flour that varies according to that year's weather, as you describe.
David
I just looked at Central Milling and their descriptions of flours. They say the use Hard Red Winter and Hard Red Spring blended for t 85.
In further posts everyone has a different take on what a substitution could be lol. Everything from 50/50 white / whole wheat blend to 80/20 to 70/30 … you name it .
I loved both the t65 from L’Epicerie and the t 85 with more flecks of brown. Every loaf I made with 80 kilos worth was always wonderful. I used it alone as well as blended with other grains from US mills. I’m not a stickler so if it tastes good I’m all for it. I also don’t measure my water but go strictly by feel.
I guess that helps alleviate a lot of issues now that I’ve been baking bread for 5 decades 😳🙏I will look to see what you posted. Take care. c
Yes, I'm aware that the T designation refers to the ash content. My difficulties with this flour have nothing to do with either the ash content or the protein level. It's that this particular sack of T80 flour seems to fall apart if there is too much hydration, even if the hydration level seems low by the usual (US) experience. Caroline hasn't had that experience so there is some real difference between her wheat crop and mine, even though they apparently came from the same mill and wheat fields.
For my latest bake I followed up on a suggestion of Caroline's, which is to add in only part of the flour and develop its gluten well, then add the rest of the flour in a few more stages, trying to develop the gluten at each addition before adding more. I did that with a straight yeasted dough, and at 65% hydration at least it didn't dissolve into a puddle after a few hours and a few S&Fs. I was able to form a batarde and proof it free-standing.
However, by the end of the proofing time (1 1/2 hours at around 73 deg F), the loaf had spread out sideways a little more than I liked, and more important, it had started tearing at the surface. Despite that, it baked up into a decent loaf with a fairly open crumb. That crumb surprised me, and so did the flavor. It was definitely better than I am used to in a straight yeast, lean bread.
As I mentioned to David I did mix the French flour with other flours . There were baguettes that were only French flour and then lots of other breads that I used various amounts of other flours. There are so many variables it’s hard to know what to suggest . 🙏
BTW, Central Milling sells a variety of high extraction flours. I have used their T80 and T85 with good success. Both have 12.5% protein. Both are stone ground (I think) and sifted, that is milled the old-fashioned way.
No affiliation except as a customer.
David